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One of the main selling points of Team Liquid is its aggregation of pro player and tournament streams. The official position seems to be that the TL stream page seems to focus on being a resource to the community but in doing so ignores the give in take nature of having featured streams.
Nazgul in his banning Idra explanation said:
Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them.
Personally, I think this position is just the wrong one to take. It allows pro players to abuse being featured for profit by providing low quality streams with no user interaction. Being featured is without a doubt a huge advantage in the amount of viewers you will receive and should be based on the quality of the stream. Also being featured puts terrible streams (Huk is clearest example) on the same level as incredible ones (Day9, Sheth, and Qxc). Basically, I feel like TL is just basically saying that they will advertise for the profit of any professional player regardless of whether they care about the fans.
In order to clarify a bit, I want to use Huk as an example. I know this will come with come with a lot of strings attached because he is associated on Team Liquid but he is exactly what I find so distasteful about streams. He streams at the lowest possible quality and as far as I have kept up with hasn't made an effort to improve, openly advertises for donations, and has no interaction with his audience by playing music the whole time. All the while he makes money off of every ad that people watch on his stream.
Now the polar opposite in my opinion is someone like Sheth (I didn't choose Day9 because he doesn't do the same kind of thing). Sheth has started his show where he does stream ladder games but he answers questions from his audience, provides some commentary other than music every time he streams, and has even raised money through his viewers responsibly with his support of Day9.
These two streams are no where near equal in quality and should not be represented as equal through TL. Now the obvious counter argument is, some people only care about seeing their favorite pro play. This might be true and I am not saying that pro player streams should be among all the other streams but maybe just in a different category separate from higher quality streams. Also I could understand that some people might think this argument is a little spoiled and I admit it is but we are currently in a time of a lot of great production and those who are putting in the effort should get the credit.
Finally I just want to say that I am not trying to tell TL how they should run their site but rather give my opinion of how I would like it to be. Also, I admit I don't know all the logistics because I am not intimately involved with streaming so feel free to correct me. I look forward to hearing other peoples' opinions.
 
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if people want to watch idra they will watch idra no matter how "bad" his stream is, and the fact that there are alot of people who want to watch him is one of the reasons he is up there.
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HuK gets tons of viewers when he streams, so I'm guessing the majority of people don't care so much about the things you like to see in a stream. Personally I agree with you though.
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I haven't watched a wide range of streams but ones such as Sheth I do find are great. He interacts with his fans really well, I was casually watching and he played 4v4 with viewers and allowed quite a few to observe as well.
I wouldn't say that anything should happen to top players that only play music and ladder, but rather those that aren't featured that are providing great quality should reach similar status much more quickly
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I'm just glad to be able to see HuK's play, Sheth, Idra, TLO, Tyler...
You need to remember back then when all we got was 2 replays / a day, and we were STARVING for games. If I had known that few years later, I'd be able to watch pro players, play, live, from their PoV; I wouldn't have believed it =)
I don't care if HuK makes money and doesn't interact, he's giving his life to the game AND he still has the kindness to start his streaming recorder everytime he ladders.
That's good enough for me =)
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It would be pretty strange if Huk's stream wasn't featured, but if a lower league player has a really good stream they should be featured too (I don't know if they are).
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Braavos36374 Posts
First, you're implying quite a bit about whether someone "cares for the fans" just by whether they interact with their stream watchers or not. Personally, I've always seen HuK go the extra mile to take pictures, sign stuff, or talk with his fans in general. Simply because he does not do it as much on stream and plays music does not mean he "doesn't care about fans."
Second, fan interaction has never been a prerequisite for streaming. If a player is good enough and the stream is acceptable quality wise (both of these requirements HuK obviously meets), we believe it should be listed. If Boxer streamed and didn't say a word to anyone and never spoke or talked to any fans, you're saying we shouldn't feature that stream?
Lastly, you seem to think that there is some injustice that players make money off streams even when they don't interact. If this really was such a big deal, then the featured streams with "good fan interaction" should pull way more viewers than the ones with just music and thus make more ad money. I don't see what the problem is then, why not let the fans decide whether they will watch a stream?
Why should we remove someone clearly deserving and notable enough to be listed because you personally don't like how they operate their stream? Sometimes fans like watching players play and nothing else. Other fans like interaction. You're presuming everyone shares your opinion and statistically that's just not the case, or else HuK wouldn't get nearly as many viewers. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch his stream and give him ad impressions, fans are choosing to watch it despite your claims of "no interaction." What's wrong with that?
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Uhh, I watch streams because I want to see a good player play, not because I want to watch a TV show. Commentary, interaction, music, those are just stream embellishments, nice but not essential. They can help get you featured, but they definitely shouldn't be required to be featured.
In fact, I kind of dislike the fact some streamers get so many devoted viewers (read fanboys) when they aren't really top tier players. (I'm not referring to any of the streams you listed. Those are all really deserving imo. And I'm definitely not referring to Idra.)
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this blog is ridiculous, huk is EASILY my favorite streamer on team liquid (a lot of this has to do with the fact that i play protoss). no one is making you watch huk if you think its "terrible", just like no one is making me watch sheth because i couldn't care less if he talks to his fans.
some of us just want to watch starcraft and don't give a shit about viewer interaction or what music they play. that is what this site is about, after all.
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oh and frankly any music on stream annoys me; any song i can hear on a stream i could just play in my own music player and it would be in better quality. if they play music i just mute it, but if they don't i can actually hear game sounds along with my own music.
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Hmm, while I do see your point, it does look like TL has chosen to compromise and pick some players for their skills (disregarding most other factors), some for their popularity and some for their entertainment value (with a lot of overlapping, obviously). I feel like that's a pretty good solution. If you consider HuK's fanbase, it would be rather outrageous for TL not to feature his stream just based on that, add his skill and accomplishments to that, and it really is a no-brainer.
Also, for the record, I completely agree with your arguments for why HuK's stream is outmatched in quality by other featured streamers. I just feel like his status as a featured streamer is still very well justified.
On another note: not sure if the stream managers have done it yet, but I wouldn't mind seeing some streams demoted from their featured status, as with the increasing number of good streams, the average quality has increased quite a lot.
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just to get some facts straight:
- HuKs visual quality since the switch to jtv has been great
- HuK frequently has a mic and talks to the chat a lot (if he's not in hardcore practice mode)
- Why should he not ask for donations? He specifies that all donations go into buying dinner for ogs-Liquid. Plus he doesn't beg for them or anything.
- In the end, streams are all about the level of play that you see from a FPV (or casted). That is what makes them good. qxc, Sheth, iNcontroL might be a bit more entertaining than people who don't talk to their audience but that doesn't take away from the skill they display.
So before you make any further complaints, get your OP right that is full of ridiculous insults to a professional SC2 player who makes the effort to stream his games instead of just practicing quitely. And actually put some effort into proving your point.
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United States22883 Posts
There is a minimum audio/video quality of streams that we look for and we often reach out to streamers we think should be featured, if they mostly just suffer from poor stream quality. Extremely low graphics settings don't factor into this, as we don't want to impede how people play the game. We're just looking for very limited artifacting, and acceptable FPS and blurriness. While you can do stuff to raise the content level, such as streaming coaching sessions or positive fan interaction, we generally don't punish for bad behavior anymore unless it's an extreme situation. And just so people are aware, that last sentence refers to things like BM, not the Cruncher situation.
What it mostly comes down to are that there are different streams for different reasons. It's kind of gone through a metamorphosis but this is the place it is now. Popularity and winning fans has merit, as does good teaching as well as high levels of play. Some are just featured because they're dang interesting, like Ng5's Chess stream or Run_br's 3D modeling stream. They're not all featured for the same reasons, but we feel that they each have some characteristic that's worth it. What that means is that there are definitely going to be some streams that don't meet your interests.
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On May 10 2011 07:11 Hot_Bid wrote:
First, you're implying quite a bit about whether someone "cares for the fans" just by whether they interact with their stream watchers or not. Personally, I've always seen HuK go the extra mile to take pictures, sign stuff, or talk with his fans in general. Simply because he does not do it as much on stream and plays music does not mean he "doesn't care about fans."
Second, fan interaction has never been a prerequisite for streaming. If a player is good enough and the stream is acceptable quality wise (both of these requirements HuK obviously meets), we believe it should be listed. If Boxer streamed and didn't say a word to anyone and never spoke or talked to any fans, you're saying we shouldn't feature that stream?
Lastly, you seem to think that there is some injustice that players make money off streams even when they don't interact. If this really was such a big deal, then the featured streams with "good fan interaction" should pull way more viewers than the ones with just music and thus make more ad money. I don't see what the problem is then, why not let the fans decide whether they will watch a stream?
Why should we remove someone clearly deserving and notable enough to be listed because you personally don't like how they operate their stream? Sometimes fans like watching players play and nothing else. Other fans like interaction. You're presuming everyone shares your opinion and statistically that's just not the case, or else HuK wouldn't get nearly as many viewers. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch his stream and give him ad impressions, fans are choosing to watch it despite your claims of "no interaction." What's wrong with that?
Your first point is right, I am implying a lot about whether someone cares for their fans but I don't think I am wrong in this case. I think based on Huk's stream quality and streaming method that when he is streaming he isn't concerned about his fans or the viewers. I am not saying that he is some hateful guy who never cares about fans, I am just saying that there is a purpose behind streaming. People often abandon their critical thinking in this case to fandom and don't realize that whoever is streaming is making money off of it. When a player streams they are putting out a product and if they knowingly put out a poor product then I feel it should be criticized and not be advertised on the site. Also to me it seems like a money grab and don't get me wrong, I am not saying Huk is getting rich off his stream but doing the bare minimum at least makes me think that his top priority isn't streaming for fans.
I don't have this idealistic view that every streamer is just in it for the fans and is willing to give up their time to just make me happy but I do feel like I should at least be met halfway. I am not saying Huk shouldn't be featured I am just saying there is a rather large disparity in quality between his stream and other featured streamers. I don't mean to specifically pick on him but he is the worst example I could think of off the top of my head. Advertising despite this disparity in quality in my mind is where I see the injustice.
Then you say it will all balance out, viewers will go to the better streams. If this was the official position then what the hell is the point of featuring streams. The point is to advertise streams that are worthwhile for the viewer and I would argue that featuring a stream has a large effect on its viewer count. So basically what I am saying is that TL is giving Huk the same advantage as streams that are much higher quality simply because he is a professional player and I feel that advantage isn't warranted. My main point is that promoting someone like Day9 and Huk equally isn't fair and that in my perfectly fair world there would be maybe another category for just pro players with music.
I understand that the world of the starcraft viewer has drastically changed with the release of SC2 and new content but personally I would just like more gradation for stream viewers. I feel that it would improve the viewing experience by connecting newer viewers directly to the type of content that is most engaging. This is obviously just my opinion of what is good and what is bad content but as viewer coming from other scenes to the SC2 scene this is how I see it.
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On May 10 2011 07:46 Jibba wrote:
There is a minimum audio/video quality of streams that we look for and we often reach out to streamers we think should be featured, if they mostly just suffer from poor stream quality. Extremely low graphics settings don't factor into this, as we don't want to impede how people play the game. We're just looking for very limited artifacting, and acceptable FPS and blurriness. While you can do stuff to raise the content level, such as streaming coaching sessions or positive fan interaction, we generally don't punish for bad behavior anymore unless it's an extreme situation. And just so people are aware, that last sentence refers to things like BM, not the Cruncher situation.
What it mostly comes down to are that there are different streams for different reasons. It's kind of gone through a metamorphosis but this is the place it is now. Popularity and winning fans has merit, as does good teaching as well as high levels of play. Some are just featured because they're dang interesting, like Ng5's Chess stream or Run_br's 3D modeling stream. They're not all featured for the same reasons, but we feel that they each have some characteristic that's worth it. What that means is that there are definitely going to be some streams that don't meet your interests.
I like the idea of promoting unique streams that users could find interesting and I understand that people could find pro play educational. I guess my main problem is with lumping all the content together because there is such a disparity in the quality in my opinion. I know it might already be hard to choose what goes where when it comes to features streams but I feel like the bar has gone up with all the great streams out recently.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Huk has Kpop music on his stream.
Therefore he is an awesome streamer and guy.
Lol at this, how'd you find that anyway.
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On May 10 2011 07:29 drooL wrote:just to get some facts straight: - HuKs visual quality since the switch to jtv has been great
- HuK frequently has a mic and talks to the chat a lot (if he's not in hardcore practice mode)
- Why should he not ask for donations? He specifies that all donations go into buying dinner for ogs-Liquid. Plus he doesn't beg for them or anything.
- In the end, streams are all about the level of play that you see from a FPV (or casted). That is what makes them good. qxc, Sheth, iNcontroL might be a bit more entertaining than people who don't talk to their audience but that doesn't take away from the skill they display.
So before you make any further complaints, get your OP right that is full of ridiculous insults to a professional SC2 player who makes the effort to stream his games instead of just practicing quitely. And actually put some effort into proving your point.
If all these changes are accurate then I am glad. I mean I still have a problem with asking for donations, but that is more personal. I agree with you that everyone wants to see a high level of play but I don't agree that that is what make them good. A high level of play is just one of the factors that makes a stream good and I feel like taking only that into account in kind of myopic.
It is fine if you say that is what you like and indeed that is what many others are looking for too but with all the pro streams out there I am personally more attracted to streams that provide more. Kudos to Huk for uping his quality but I still have a problem with him sticking with the bare minimum for so long. I know that streaming isn't easy but in my opinion if you are going to put your product out there you should make sure it is comparable to other products out there.
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On May 10 2011 08:11 Kipsate wrote:Huk has Kpop music on his stream. Therefore he is an awesome streamer and guy. Lol at this, how'd you find that anyway.
Stream thread was always at the top of the stream forum, then I figured out why  .
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On May 10 2011 08:12 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 07:29 drooL wrote:just to get some facts straight: - HuKs visual quality since the switch to jtv has been great
- HuK frequently has a mic and talks to the chat a lot (if he's not in hardcore practice mode)
- Why should he not ask for donations? He specifies that all donations go into buying dinner for ogs-Liquid. Plus he doesn't beg for them or anything.
- In the end, streams are all about the level of play that you see from a FPV (or casted). That is what makes them good. qxc, Sheth, iNcontroL might be a bit more entertaining than people who don't talk to their audience but that doesn't take away from the skill they display.
So before you make any further complaints, get your OP right that is full of ridiculous insults to a professional SC2 player who makes the effort to stream his games instead of just practicing quitely. And actually put some effort into proving your point. If all these changes are accurate then I am glad. I mean I still have a problem with asking for donations, but that is more personal. I agree with you that everyone wants to see a high level of play but I don't agree that that is what make them good. A high level of play is just one of the factors that makes a stream good and I feel like taking only that into account in kind of myopic. It is fine if you say that is what you like and indeed that is what many others are looking for too but with all the pro streams out there I am personally more attracted to streams that provide more. Kudos to Huk for uping his quality but I still have a problem with him sticking with the bare minimum for so long. I know that streaming isn't easy but in my opinion if you are going to put your product out there you should make sure it is comparable to other products out there.
It is fine if you say that this is what you like but that doesn't apply to everyone. Some people can simply appreciate the beauty of high level play.
And some streamers deliver only that, as a favor to the community. Especially if they don't have the time/character for more than that. And some decide to offer insight, for example WhiteRa while others flourish in being themselves/a character on stream (Destiny, qxc, .....). Preference thing. Period.
And you should still absolutely edit your OP. I find it incredibly insulting and it makes you look very uninformed and dumb 
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EPT
