Yeah, Day9 is definitely not just telling people to wait around (sorry if I gave that impression). He wants people to continue experimenting until solutions are found without any interference from Blizzard. That's a problem for pros who consider their practice time precious and think it should be spent working on the safest possible thing, though.

infinity2k9

United Kingdom2397 Posts

May 05 2011 17:10 GMT

#22

Day9 wasn't even arguing the same thing, just dismissing the argument and saying the optimal strategy will be found even if it's not playing Zerg. Which is just silly. Someone like IdrA needs to speak out if he believes theres a problem, and he states what he thinks is wrong very precisely. Even if it's game design problem and not balance it bares talking about. What's the use in ignoring it really? Blizzard i'm sure wants the feedback from people like IdrA. We're not talking about a random Gold player saying these things. IdrA has a career in the game right now, a solution maybe possibly forming one day is not good enough.

No amount of experimenting is going to magically find a solution to things like scouting. How many options do people honestly think Zerg has that don't get at least attempted? There's people jumping into this game with 300 APM playing the game 10 hours a day. The game is going to get figured out a lot quicker than people are attempting to suggest.

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

May 05 2011 17:17 GMT

#23

On May 06 2011 02:10 infinity2k9 wrote:
No amount of experimenting is going to magically find a solution to things like scouting. How many options do people honestly think Zerg has that don't get at least attempted? There's people jumping into this game with 300 APM playing the game 10 hours a day. The game is going to get figured out a lot quicker than people are attempting to suggest.

First of all, Idra has a reputation (quite a deeply ingrained one) that he only copies standard builds from other people.

Second, dozens of people playing Brood Wars with 300 APM playing the game 10 hours a day under structured team environments and hours of advice come up with new strategies and builds on a monthly basis. Just because some players in less structured environments playing under less collective brainstorming conditions (ie. Idra who admitted only playing when he felt like it/prior to a big tournament) exist doesn't mean this process is going to be sped up any.

CGPlato

United States5 Posts

May 05 2011 20:58 GMT

#24

On May 06 2011 00:06 Whole wrote:
Not pointing you out specifically, but a lot of people are falling back on this arguement. Do you guys honestly think IdrA and other Zergs aren't experimenting? He wakes up, plays SC2, and eats almost every day. He doesn't just ladder for 10 hours. He has said he experimented, but nothing works. They do have a few new builds popping up every once in a while, but I don't think it is safe to assume that there is a vast amount of strategies to explore.

Well to be honest, I don't think it is in a player like Idra's ability to find the solutions, without a starting point at least. His entire reputation, and he even says himself, is around solid fundamental builds that are safe. I am not saying the solution is a risky unsafe build, but I don't think a player who's entire play style is centered around that philosophy will be able to think outside the box in order to solve the problems the race faces. On the other side, I don't think there are "vast amounts" of strategies out there necessarily either. I do not think the game has been figured out by any means though.

On May 06 2011 02:10 infinity2k9 wrote:
Day9 wasn't even arguing the same thing, just dismissing the argument and saying the optimal strategy will be found even if it's not playing Zerg. Which is just silly. IdrA has a career in the game right now, a solution maybe possibly forming one day is not good enough.

No amount of experimenting is going to magically find a solution to things like scouting. How many options do people honestly think Zerg has that don't get at least attempted? There's people jumping into this game with 300 APM playing the game 10 hours a day. The game is going to get figured out a lot quicker than people are attempting to suggest.

Well the idea of not playing zerg is silly, and I do not think that a balanced game can not include one side. For example, if in chess, black did not have any viable strategies for winning and instead had to try and play to a draw, it would not be balanced. Using Day9's idea, chess could be balanced even if only white could actually win a game, I think at least from my interpretation of what he was saying.

However,he has a point in dismissing the issue as it is presented because he is accurate in my opinion about how players like Idra present their case, which is venting not discussing. Idra having a career right now and a solution being found later in the game is not an option is a stupid point. The game should not be changed in order deal with that. You are essentially saying "even if there does exist a strategy that could solve these issues, Idra has a career now and he doesn't know what the strategy is, so Blizzard should change the game now." I disagree that any players career/success or lack there of is a reason for change.

That being said, the assumption that a solution does exist is also a big leap of faith. It is very well a possibility that players like Idra are right, and the game is indeed imbalanced. However, there is a reason patches are released slowly and not just thrown out day to day. Players, and the strategies that the game undergoes, need time to develop and work themselves out. It would be stupid and a never ending loop if every time a problem presented itself to players Blizzard just stepped in and fixed the problem for them in a "johnny on the spot" sort of way. I think if Idra is right, and the game is imbalanced for Zerg, the issue will be resolved soon.

Chahta

United States148 Posts

May 05 2011 21:28 GMT

#25

What's the definition of all-in? Playing Zerg.

All jokes aside, scouting is a serious issue for zerg. Yes the other races must make a "sacrifice" for their scouting past worker, but consider what a zerg must do to stay alive compared to the costs.

A terran must "sacrifice" a MULE which is ~300minerals. The zerg equivalent is 2 spines which must be spent (minimum) to even try staying alive (and is then down 2 drones...). The scan can be "countered" by creative building placement...but early game there isn't much creep spread even when it is a priority...it's difficult to have anything far from the hatch. Plus even when creep is spread out placing buildings distant leaves them vulnerable to snipes by banshee or drop later on, because who really protects outlying buildings with a spore crawler?

Then protoss has either robo or hallucination options. Getting a robotics is generally standard play at which point an observer is a small investment which can typically stay in the opponent's base for a long period of time and force them to get detection if they even want to remove it. (an overlord is twice the cost of an observer instantly making the observer pay for itself). Unless you are an idiot and run the observer straight into an overseer, you are guaranteed to see every building and the army composition. Hallucinate is also becoming common from the 3 gate expand since you might as well use all those sentries for something.

A Zerg on the other hand must deal with easily negated slow overlords or overseers at the cost of 150/100. Overseers have the advantage of speed and one armor but still die to properly placed anti OL defenses. Anti-air isn't much of an issue in "standard" T/P play, or even "cheesy" play for that matter. Plus, an overseer is only going to stay alive for about half its trip across the base at best, and on maps like TDA, good luck ever seeing anything because you'll be dead before your sloverlord can make it cross positions.

The issue still remains that the other races only complain about scouting a zerg all-in. Not a strong argument when zerg has difficulty scouting standard T/P builds. Are they going banshees or just hiding units? I see 3 WGs, but are they hiding an archives still?

Perhaps give an overseer more armor for survivability's sake or decrease the cost. I feel buffing OL speed might make them too good on Shattered Temple, but something has to be done about Tal'Darim Altar. Solo ling runby's can only tell you so much, and is even less reliable against unorthodox play where you don't really know the numbers your opponent should have...or again if they are hiding units.

What if overseers gained a defensive matrix style ability? Let it be invulnerable for 15s or so at the cost of more energy than an instant-morph. It's not a cloak forcing detection, can last the duration of a scan or w/e is fair. Maybe then zergs can be happy, though still does not address pre-lair scouting, but then again 50s for a spine crawler is absurd. I would take a lower HP spine if I knew it could at least be built in time to react to something!

Pokedude1013

116 Posts

May 07 2011 01:52 GMT

#26

On May 05 2011 12:30 mizU wrote:
I feel like certain sides of the scouting argument also aren't presented.

Terran has unrestricted scouting for the cost of a weaker economy.

Protoss can't really scout Zerg until robo tech or hallucination.

Both Terran and Protoss have a hard time scouting bane busts/roach/sling all-ins.

Zergs have trouble scouting mid-game because once marines/stalkers are out sloverlords die quickly, but overseers and changelings come in at this point.

I feel the game is pretty balanced as of now.

No they have a pretty good way of scouting this. It's called walking into the zerg base. Slowlings can't catch workers unless they go on creep fast enough to prevent you from seeing how many gases/when they got their gas/amount of drones.