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i was inspired to write this after reading koguts rant against total biscuit in his blog. i agree with alot of whats been said, but (for me) its not specific to total biscuit, and i dont think its him we should be shouting at. i cant remember the last time i watched anything cast and learnt anything from what the caster was saying. im a high diamond player who could probably push masters if i put them time in, so my knowledge is hardly amazing, but there never seems to be any insight from casters, just stating the facts. for viewers in my situation it really makes enjoying esports difficult.
90% of casts i watch i now have on mute and discuss the games on skype with my friends. i love every caster for trying to make esports better for people, and they normally seem to have real passion for the game but i dont want them to use that to hide the fact they are basically following the footsteps of moderate temperature.
everyone laughed at "mining minerals mining gas mining minerals" but its not far off from a standard cast. sure add some excitement at stuff blowing up and dying but i just want more from the person being paid to make me love this. i want to hear some real analysis of the unit comps, positioning, timings, rather than just stating that they are happening. i want to hear THAT THIS GUY IS BAD. why does everything have to be good, everything has to be exciting, when player x is stomping player y i dont want to hear that y was unlucky, i want people to hear that he was dumb for making the wrong stuff at the wrong time.
so please, keep hiring total biscuit to cast some games, get new people into the scene, but please please please, can we get some more casters with a real opinion on the game, and a passion for sharing that.
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Are casts really where you "learn" something?
Look at the pro events like football, basketball, tennis, etc....
What do the casters really do? I mean sure they analyze the game, but they don't tell you how to do things. They just make it really nice and accessible for a wide audience. To expect heavy analysis at this early stage of this game is tough.
At this point, the evolution of SC2 is not at the point where casters can definitely point to a region and say "this is going to happen", because it's such a flexible game at this point. For BW, casters could point to a building and say...based on this building, this is going to happen.
I mean sure you can say "Factory? Maybe there might be hellions? Herp derp"...but in terms of actual strategical analysis, the best that a lot of casters can do at this point is guess at what's going to happen, because how many times do casters come out of a game saying "wow, that was really surprising how X player did _________"
Too many times.
But I guess it's this type of mentality that keeps people from even guessing in the first place: because we criticize them for it when it "appeared" obvious that X player was doing Y.
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I can't tell if this blog is serious or not.
If you're not learning anything new from watching TSL/GSL, something's wrong. Casting, currently, as at a pretty nice level so far. Even Code-A is sometimes exciting to watch, and the kind of analysis that comes out from Doa and Moletrap is pretty deep stuff. Is there a certain caster whom you do like?
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I kind of see your point, but don't really agree. I can't find one bad thing about Day[9], Tasteless, Artosis or even DJwheat's casting styles. And of course the casters try to make the match more entertaining, it's part of their job.
But I agree, that some casters really overhype some games or actions.
And if you think, we need new casters, why not try to cast them by yourself or with your skype buddies and maybe people would enjoy YOUR style.
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Dammit, I wanted the name 'turdburgler' on TL.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
A good Caster makes something amazing when it is not amazing.
A good Caster finds things to talk about when there is nothing to talk about.
A good Caster brings his passion over to the spectators.
I don't need someone to really state the obvious, but I doubt most people here do, as they follow SC2 closely. Personally I dislike Tastosis, while I am certain 99% of the people here love him(no, more then that). It is a matter of personal opinion, but there is a general consensus.
These so called youtube casters such as TB and HD and Husky get alot of hate for appealing to the casual audience, they are in fact the pillars of SC2 E-sport expanding all over. However we are elitists.
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want to hear some real analysis of the unit comps, positioning, timings, rather than just stating that they are happening. i want to hear THAT THIS GUY IS BAD. why does everything have to be good, everything has to be exciting, when player x is stomping player y i dont want to hear that y was unlucky, i want people to hear that he was dumb for making the wrong stuff at the wrong time.
I swear that's like...an exact description of Artosis.
Every time a new strategy appears in the GSL, Artosis is always on hand to let you know what he thinks the weaknesses are, what the player is going for, whether it's good or bad, all in detail. For example when July was doing his 50 drone balls out attacking style against Nada, if Artosis hadn't gone into the details of the build I sincerely doubt many people would really have understood what was going on. They wouldn't have known that what July was doing had a time limit, they wouldn't have known that if Nada had turtled he would have been in the lead, they essentially wouldn't have understood anything beyond 'wow July is playing so aggressive, I'm going to start playing zerg like this!'
And Artosis always lets you know if a player is doing something bad, or if the build is good but badly executed, and usually at least heavily hints if he thinks a player is awful.
I've also been impressed with the casting of iNcontroL and Gretorp, at least while casting T and P they always know exactly what's going down.
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On April 25 2011 21:36 The KY wrote:Show nested quote + want to hear some real analysis of the unit comps, positioning, timings, rather than just stating that they are happening. i want to hear THAT THIS GUY IS BAD. why does everything have to be good, everything has to be exciting, when player x is stomping player y i dont want to hear that y was unlucky, i want people to hear that he was dumb for making the wrong stuff at the wrong time. I swear that's like...an exact description of Artosis. Every time a new strategy appears in the GSL, Artosis is always on hand to let you know what he thinks the weaknesses are, what the player is going for, whether it's good or bad, all in detail. For example when July was doing his 50 drone balls out attacking style against Nada, if Artosis hadn't gone into the details of the build I sincerely doubt many people would really have understood what was going on. They wouldn't have known that what July was doing had a time limit, they wouldn't have known that if Nada had turtled he would have been in the lead, they essentially wouldn't have understood anything beyond 'wow July is playing so aggressive, I'm going to start playing zerg like this!' And Artosis always lets you know if a player is doing something bad, or if the build is good but badly executed, and usually at least heavily hints if he thinks a player is awful. I've also been impressed with the casting of iNcontroL and Gretorp, at least while casting T and P they always know exactly what's going down.
Yeah, haha. Artosis is just, amazing. He knows, like, everything. And when he doesn't, he's just like, "let's learn this together and see how it goes"
I find it hilarious when he calls someone bad, because I'm just not used to it in normal games on television. I still remember when some player missplaced his zealot and zerglings got a surround on the ramp, he was like "that was actually retarded", Tasteless started laughing, and so did I
lol
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What i dislike the most is how some people/casters make the argument that insightful or analytical commentary are too complex / will alienate the new people. I don't think so. If explained properly and clearly like the way artosis and painuser does it, i'd say that even the newbies can understand that and will most likely impress them. It is alright to assume that new viewers are newbies to starcraft, it is another thing to assume that they are little kids unable to grasp new concepts.
I watch casts to have fun most of the time so what's most important for me is that the casters are entertaining. I also feel that for most basic strategy, i can sort of tell what's going on, if not some gosu in the LR threads will. So i'm fine with "play by play" casters as people say it
That said, the only casters that create truly memorable moments for me are those who not only can do play by play but also offer insight beyond what is common and obvious. The premium example is of course Artosis.
He calls things like
"Checkprime will have to stop at 20 drones here to hold the 1 gas 4 gate" about a full 3 minutes before the whole thing happened and that's what check exactly did.
"MC will bust out a stargate play here" right at the beginning of the game
Nada July Low drone aggression of course
and many other things.
Gretorp and Incontrol also make very good calls with stuff like the BratOK Machine game when Machine had 90 supply to Bratok 30 and InControl said " Trust me guys this is way close than it seems" and 5 minutes later, Bratok won.
These casters make me impressed with the game because i feel that there is so much depth and strategy beyond what is obvious in the game. And once you explain it to someone, it is not even complex.
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On April 25 2011 20:43 Zergneedsfood wrote:
But I guess it's this type of mentality that keeps people from even guessing in the first place: because we criticize them for it when it "appeared" obvious that X player was doing Y.
as an easy example of what im trying to get across, if a terran goes gas first and starts a reactor on his barracks hes going quick helions, a caster can tell you that on 12 supply, not on the 20 or so when they pop out. then if it doesnt happen they can go, well thats not optimal.
what we normally get is, ooohh gas first must be some kind of tech (wow narrow it down why dont you).
i agree that artosis often says something is bad, the main point is was trying to get across is we dont see enough of that. you can make it exciting, you can make it fun, without having your tongue up the players asses assuming that everything they do is good. atleast total biscuit is filling a role in the community, "most" casters are so interchangeable that i just dont get excited when i hear who is casting the games, for the reasons i already stated
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I like the play by play commentators. A lot of analysing ones don't bring any excitement to the games. A good play by play caster I can have the stream as sound only and still know what is happening in the game. That way I can play something simple while listening to the stream. Or write on the forums here.
Totalbiscuit is a good example of a caster I like. Remove the video and just listening to him is fun, that should be a condition for a cast. ^^ If they are fun to watch and knowledgeable it is even better, but I don't expect all casters to be great and the great casters to cast everything, there is simply too much content.
Being part of a crowd watching something is yet another angle, there you want tension and action, you don't want analysis as much due to thinking about the game too much lowers excitement level.
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The problem with the Total biscuit's and Crota's is that if you're not a bronze leaguer then he is the equivalent of verbal retardation. That's basically the whole story. I don't know why you'd follow competitive Starcraft 2 if you don't make the effort to try and appreciate what's being done by the players and what's going on in their minds.
I mean, this is me Total Biscuit-ing chess real quick.
"Hello folks, I'm total iaguz and welcome to another Chesscraft 2 game. Spawning in the black trunks is SlayerS_Kasparov and over there in the White corner is n.die Jaedong. Now, jaedong will go first, of course, because he's playing white and he opens with e4, clearly looking to put some pressure on Kasparov who moves his pawn up to e5 in response, clearly not wanting to put up with any crap by jaedong who moves out with his knight, probably looking to castle his king later so as to defend it from Kasparov's attacks, who HAS STARTED MOVING OUT HIS QUEEN FOLKS, THESE NEXT FEW MOVES WILL BE VERY CRUCIAL, OH MY GOD I'VE SPILLED ALL MY TEA AND DROPPED MY CRUMPETS BECAUSE, YES, JAEDONG MOVES HIS PAWN UP, WANTING TO PROMOTE IT IN A FEW MORE TURNS..."
Compare that drivel to any halfway decent Chess analysis video by some random on Youtube who has a squeaky terrible voice and which one do you find better?
TB's style is dumb. It sounds dumb and it is dumb and it's targeted directly at the part of my brain that feels intellectual pain. I respect the work he does in other video games, he is a very well rounded nerd, but I feel that his talents are stretched far too thinly and he should stop commentating SC2 for that reason alone.
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Moletrap is a good example of entertainment commentary, because while freaking the fuck out when appropriate he also has a decent understanding of what's making him freak out.
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i dont want to go into this really far but i wonder how people can like play by play casters more then actually casters which are good -_-.
I mean most casters dont even know what is going on and they tell the obvious and dont explain anything build oriented which is redicilously bad. Im sorry to say but casters like totalbiscuit shouldnt be allowed to cast.
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On April 25 2011 20:46 Zegge wrote:
I kind of see your point, but don't really agree. I can't find one bad thing about Day[9], Tasteless, Artosis or even DJwheat's casting styles. And of course the casters try to make the match more entertaining, it's part of their job.
But I agree, that some casters really overhype some games or actions.
And if you think, we need new casters, why not try to cast them by yourself or with your skype buddies and maybe people would enjoy YOUR style.
There are bad things you can say about any caster:
For example: I don't like Day[9]s casting (his dailies are great though) because he always sounds like a teacher trying to explain everything to his retarded pupils... and his "aha. aha." when co-casting and the other guy is talking is annoying, too...
But we shouldn't focus on bad things, we should focus on the good things. Casters make a game exciting and every caster brings a different target group into the E-Sports scene. Some (TotalBiscuit, Husky,...) bring a laid back audience that doesn't care about accuracy, just excitement, others (Day[9], Artosis, ...) attract a more serious group that wants accuracy above everything.
Many people on TL are part of the more serious group, but we are still a minority - even after the SC2 user growth - and to have E-Sports grow we have to accept this as well as that other people just don't care about the same things as we do.
Just relax, have some fun, stop taking everything so seriously and the world will be a better place for E-Sports.
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EPT
