• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 18:29
CET 00:29
KST 08:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers [G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles Mutation # 548 Shining Bright
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder SCHNAIL now supports Remastered The End Of An Era Rollback Netcode in Brood War How SKT1 S-Tiers Felt To Be Swept By Flash
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll [$1250] International ShieldBattery League New Worlds Star League
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Deus Ex 3!? Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Armies of Exigo - YesYes?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9834 users

Complexity of balance

Blogs > Reborn8u
Post a Reply
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 03:04:08
March 20 2011 02:39 GMT
#1
GSL Spoiler Alert!
+ Show Spoiler +

Actual title I couldn't use without spoiling the GSL:

Mc's "abuse" debate

There are a few things that need to be brought up in the current FF/warpgate/protoss balance debates.
I'm not trying to talk about any changes or balance itself, just some very important points that people need to be more aware off concerning the balance around FF's and warp. There are a lot of factors to consider, so here is my two cents on what some of those hugely important factors are and how interconnected things like FF's and warp gates are to the rest of protoss design.

I'd first like to focus on the Metalopolis game, where MC put 7 consecutive FF's on July's ramp to shut down any re-enforce.

#1 is there are other options for zergs to defend 4gates or early aggression. Instead of trying to defend with roaches and 2 spine crawlers and some ling in the metaloplois game, July could have made more spine crawlers. If he had 5 or 6 or them and 2 of them were close to his ramp, maybe even one at the top of the ramp overlooking it, than MC would not have been able to run sentries up to it and FF the ramp over and over. I think defending with just lings and spine crawlers could have worked better than defending with ling, roach, and only 2 spines. The range advantage spines provide should not be underestimated. There dps when combined with lings great as well. They also would be a great thing to have around on metalopolis when taking a 3rd. They can be repositioned as a wall between the main ramp and 3rd ramp later on.
#2 when July was scouting in that game he used all of the lings he had out on the field at the same time, which was a mistake. Had he used them 1 at a time and spaced out the times he scouted he could have seen the nexus cancel and responded sooner to the incoming attack. Also, he could have had a few lings left out on the map which brings me to point #2.
#3 I didn't see any kind of counter attack. Always having a small group of lings 6 to 8 stashed on the map somewhere is a must for zerg. He very well could have forced MC to warp some of the units into his base, increasing the multi tasking and weakening the attack greatly.


Blizzard has already added options to overcome FF's and nerfed sentries dmg from 6 to 8. Ultras, colossus, and thors can kill FF's. Roaches and infestors can burrow under them. . All of these options are rarely used in comparison to FF.

Stalkers, Zealots, and sentries are horrible in cost effectiveness in terms of DPS, compared to MM + stim (even without stim really) when med evacs are added it becomes a joke. They are almost just as bad in cost effectiveness vs lings, and roaches, with hydras added it becomes a joke. But wait, hydras and medevacs are a higher tier you say? Yes they are, but look at protoss's available next tier units, Void rays, and immortals. The real problem with these IMO is they are countered by the same units that counter the gateway units before them, both Voids and immortals get smashed by Marines with stim. Terrans are almost always going to have an abundance of marines out by the time immortals or voids come into play. Furthermore they don't help much dealing with the next step from terran, which is usually medevacs, the slow speed of immortals and voids is also important to note. They can't catch a stimmed bio ball any better than the gateway units getting hit with concussive. In zergs case there are hydras, which are far more cost effective than zealots, stalkers, sentries, and hydras smash immortals and voids. I should also add that speedlings are great against all of these protoss options except zealots and voids ( voids do take forever to kill lings and cant chase them at all) also the problem here is that zealots are the cost effective unit vs lings but terrible vs roaches and hydras. FF's are really the only thing that gives protoss a way of evening the playing field.

The problem with FF's is a deep issue, it goes to the core of sc2 protoss design. The warp mechanic is another issue entirely, but it is just as deep in the design. Many people are under the mistaken impression that protoss "can instantly make an army anywhere" NOT TRUE, warp gates have a cooldown and the rate at which they can make units on a constant basis is comparable to terran or zerg. If all of protoss's warpgates are sitting there waiting to be used than protoss is missing production cycles (or at least forgetting to do them on time) this production time cannot be replaced, it's no different than a terran with rax or factories sitting idle, or a zerg with unused larva and money sitting in the bank. FF's and warpgates are powerful, no doubts about it. But there power is to make up for the lack of power protoss's early units have. This point is exactly why we see so much FF usage and toss rushing to colossus! Protoss would be completely broken in its current state without FF and warp gates.

Lets look at the unit upgrades. Twilight upgrades are not as cheap and readily available as stim, combat shield, concussive, ling speed, and roach speed. Terran and zerg have all the upgrades for their early units cheeper and more easily available than protoss. The cost of getting a twilight and leg speed is almost the same as the cost of getting a tech lab, stim, concussive, and combat shield combined. It is more expensive to get a twilight and blink than to get roach speed and ling speed, units which already get a speed boost on creep. There is also the issue of the tech tree, for toss to get these upgrades as early as the other races, they would have to skip a robo. The gas costs of getting sentires to survive, getting a robo and obs, and getting the twilight and an upgrade is impossible to do while keeping up in army strength and in the same time frame as the other races early upgrades. To skip a robo is extremely risky. Burrow or 1 banshee can crush you. Also, toss needs obs early as it is their key to scouting in the early mid game.

So looking at FF's, warpgates, unit cost effectiveness, tech trees and upgrade availability as a whole we can quickly see that they are all intertwined in protoss's design and protoss matchups vs the other races. To change any of them significantly would require a change in almost all of these factors slightly. Basically, a huge overhaul of protoss as a race. Let's agree that there are some problems but that they are so deep in protoss design that we should be very patient in getting them worked out. This is an incredibly difficult balancing act. Any hasty change or nerf to these things could break protoss matchups.

As an expample, when roach range got buffed I basically had to re learn pvz, the same goes with the forge build time nerf and the zealot build time nerf. The ironic thing is none of these changes were even targeted at pvz. (as far as I'm aware) but they actually changed the matchup in such a drastic way, it actually made FF's incredibly more important in PvZ than they had been previously. Zealot rushes were no longer viable, forge fe's become more difficult, cannons behind gateways could no longer deny early roach aggression, early pools and roach rushes became much scarier.

Just some things I think needed to be entered into peoples minds, consider all the factors and side effects, This game is so very complex! Blizzard can't just nerf FF's or warpgates without looking at a lot of aspects.


**
:)
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
March 20 2011 02:59 GMT
#2
I think blizzard could nerf ff somewhat if they did it properly without messing up game balance much at all. Personally I've always felt that wg timing pushes in PvZ are much too easy to execute and it feels almost unnecessary to carry out a macro game when I know that any form or variation of 4/5/6 gate is going to absolutely destroy most zergs that have very little option as far as scouting goes.

Feels especially true for the fake 3 gate expand, I've been doing that thing for ages and it's incredibly rare for mid master zergs to be able to defend it. The second you ff their ramp the game is essentially over.
CFRD119
Profile Joined June 2010
United States97 Posts
March 20 2011 03:29 GMT
#3
The problem with the thors, colossi, and ultralisks being able to break through forcefields is that they are a tier 3 unit. Zerg has to go through lair and hive to be able to get ultralisks, as well as throwing down the ultralisk cavern. The problem comes into play when that early in the game, zerg has nothing that can break a forcefield. If he had researched burrow earlier then maybe it would have been a different story, but saying that the tier 3 units can break through a forcefield is a null point because it takes generally longer than 10 minutes to tech that high as Zerg.
RIP KT Violet
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
08:00
Continental Nation League S1
CranKy Ducklings47
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 86
EmSc Tv 13
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 419
ProTech61
Shinee 50
LuMiX 2
League of Legends
Doublelift4497
JimRising 647
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1336
Coldzera 419
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox526
Other Games
summit1g17843
tarik_tv5811
Grubby3316
syndereN464
byalli269
PiGStarcraft228
C9.Mang0155
Pyrionflax136
Fuzer 135
NeuroSwarm75
ViBE69
Maynarde66
ZombieGrub49
Chillindude12
JuggernautJason5
Railgan4
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL146
Other Games
BasetradeTV29
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 13
EmSc2Tv 13
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 53
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3143
• Jankos2875
Other Games
• imaqtpie709
• Shiphtur187
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
10h 31m
KCM Race Survival
10h 31m
OSC
14h 31m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
Reynor vs Solar
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs MaxPax
herO vs Rogue
IPSL
2 days
WorsT vs nOmaD
Dewalt vs andersOn
AI Arena Tournament
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
IPSL
3 days
Azhi_Dahaki vs ggnore13
Double vs WIZARD
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-03
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Proleague 2026-11-04
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

1xBet Invitational
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.