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So... We've gone through the beta and several months of release. Multiple top-end tournaments and tons of ladder games.
I think it's safe to say that Zerg players aren't missing anything at this point. It has all been tried over the past several months, and there have been SOME developments, but nothing truly impressive.
Zerg is broken, it's not a lack of good players utilizing their units in new ways. Still, that's not the point of this thread. The point is to ask a simple question: "What the hell happened to Zerg?"
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/41/Zergling.png/200px-Zergling.png)
The Zergling has lost its teeth. No longer do they trump every other T1 unit in a straight-up fight. No longer are they considerable end-game DPS. No longer do they have this perfect synergy with... well... everything else in the Zerg arsenal... Instead, we tend to make them simply because we have nothing else to spend minerals on.
Looking back to broodwar, Zerglings were actually smaller, had higher DPS, and tended to live longer due to less splash damage and lower DPS across the board. What used to be one of the scariest units in the game due to their extremely low cost and huge potential for being massed into an unstoppable ball of death, is now a super-fast tickle-troop. Where did my beastly lings go?
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/5/55/Hydralisk.png/182px-Hydralisk.png)
This piece of trash doesn't deserve to be called by the name given to it ingame, and for the length of this post, I won't disservice the Hydralisk by giving this unit that title.
In Broodwar, the Hydralisks was a very scary thing. They were basically marines on crack, you were ok spending that 25/25 extra on them because they came with twice the HP, were super fast, and did solid damage. Probably not as iconic a unit as the Zergling or Mutalisk, but still a HUGE part of the Zerg army.
The piece of crap in the picture above? Make a Marine, stick another marine to him, reduce the speed of their bullets, throw away 50 gas, and you have this pile of crap.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/b/b8/Lurker.png) + 10 years of development = ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/69/Baneling.png/200px-Baneling.png)
WTF? Lurkers somehow evolved from giant spider-like defensive death-machines into much slower 1-time shot balls of goop that die when the wind blows too hard...
This move really confuses me... WTF was Kerrigan thinking?
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/d/dc/Mutalisk.png/200px-Mutalisk.png)
Probably the Zerg unit that made it through most unscathed, but still a shadow of their former selves.
Mutalisks used to be a roaming cloud of death. Nothing was safe. If you were a Marine, you hoped you were at the center of the ball as all those guys on the edge were constantly getting picked off. If you were a High Templar, you knew you were dead even in the middle of the ball, the Mutalisks were relentless.
The modern Mutalisk has forgotten how to shoot and fly at the same time, is clostrophobic, and is one of the only ranged units to not have its range increase (infact, it has effectively been decreased).
Man... What used to be the scourge of the sky has become little-more than a mild annoyance...
Speaking of scourge...
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/5/58/Scourge.png) vs ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/a/af/Corrupter.png/200px-Corrupter.png)
One of these units has a use in all match-ups, can be used to effectively shut down drops, reduce the effectiveness of your opponents mutas while providing cover for your own, and kill pretty much anything that flies.
The other one? Well... it has a beak AND pincers... that's pretty cool!
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/5/5f/Ultralisk.png/200px-Ultralisk.png)
Not sure how you feel about direct criticism... but dude... you got fat! The ultra actually didn't lose much DPS (and has the potential of doing more due to splash), but it did get siginificantly slower and larger, both of which are huge problems in the way this unit was used in BW and continue to be problems in modern SC2.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/1/1e/Overlord.png/193px-Overlord.png)
Perhaps the biggest loss for the Zerg army. The overlord used to provide detection for Zerg back in the day. It was never super effective in this role, but given their comparatively low cost and the fact that you need to get them for army anyway, you USUALLY had detection where you needed it. Still, DTs were a core part of PvZ and Wraiths were a very viable, even common tech path in TvZ. Now? Banshees and DTs run rampant and Zerg must spend more on upgrading a pre-existing Overlord into an Overseer than it costs a Protoss player to make an invisible scout which can provide the same service...
I'm not going to go in to all the fixes that Zerg needs. We all know Z needs some love... but taking a step back and looking at the Zerg army... wtf happened?
 
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Damn... I forgot to put Defilers vs Infestors up there...
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I was sad when I first tried going hydras in SC2 after using them in BW : (
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kerrigan kinda took over the swarm
when the overmind died the swarm devolved a bit
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^ Yeah, that's all I kept thinking the entire time I was writing this up.
Kerrigan is like one of those CEOs running a corporation into the ground. Sure she had a good year when she took over (mostly due to previous management IMO), but since then things have been going from bad to worse.
It's a good thing her ass got dumped in Wings of Liberty!
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This is a very bad analysis. You see only bad points, which isn't possible considering that Zerg players do win. You're not taking a step back, you just dived right into it and lost all sight of what matters.
What you're basically saying is that SC2 units aren't BW units.
So?
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That's why I put this in the blog section, cuz it's only half-analysis. Also supposed to be a bit of griping and humor involved as well.
No, it's not 100% serious.
Yes, I am saying SC2 units are not BW units. When you look at the Zerg army, for the most part, they're much worse.
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well u can still compare queen vs queen 
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Queens are holy-fucking-ridiculous units. That's why Zerg is OK even though their main units got nerfed.
Roaches are also pretty powerful.
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Even archons feared a crackling army.
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Defiler vs infestor is actually somewhat fair. I'd take the defiler over the infestor, though, to be completely honest.
EDIT: A lot of these arguments can be made for Protoss too (and, to a lesser extent, Terran. Terran air and infantry is better but mech is worse)
The reaver>colossus, storm got nerfed, carriers are useless, no arbiters, speed zeals are gone, stalkers are comparatively weaker than dragoons, warp prisms are weaker, DTs more expensive, etc. etc.
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Yeah... comparing the near-useless queen of old to the one unit that is currently holding Zerg together in SC2 doesn't really line up with the gripe-making motive here. (also note that I left out Broodlords, which are hands-down better than Guardians)
Though I really liked the abilities from the old Queen, they were far too expensive for what they did to be utilized in BW.
New queen >>>>>>>> old queen.
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I miss lurkers so much. :<
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i think the main reason ultras got worse is cuz the other races have a lot more units that do very well against them and the defiler was removed which was the main reason late game zerg was so beastly compared to the pathetic useless gotta remax and throw units away thing it is now.
i remember as toss just being so sad once defilers, zerglings and ultras came into play. But then it stopped mattering cuz 5 hatch hydra became popular and destroyed me anyways lolol
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Humans and Protoss evolve, Zerg devolves. 
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On March 12 2011 05:05 LoLAdriankat wrote:Humans and Protoss evolve, Zerg devolves.
I don't know. Scivessels and goliaths were a pretty big loss for T, and arbiters/goons/reavers were pretty damn pimp.
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at least banelings dont have to be burrowed to kill
but that can still do that
i always found lurkers to be gimmicky and mainly useless
I also disagree when you said mutas are the carryover
micro in sc1 vs micro in sc2.... hmmm i wonder
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For sure all races have major losses. Obviously, the OP is contrived to make Zerg look like they're miles behind when, honestly, everybody lost something compared to BW.
I do feel that Zerg did lose more, though not to the extend that I make it seem in the OP. Pretty much everything they have got weaker across the board. The ONLY solid up-trade Zerg got was the Queen.
Everything else has either seen a reduction in effectiveness or an increase in cost. Or in the case of one unnamed unit, both.
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On March 12 2011 05:14 Bill Murray wrote:
at least banelings dont have to be burrowed to kill
but that can still do that
i always found lurkers to be gimmicky and mainly useless
I also disagree when you said mutas are the carryover
micro in sc1 vs micro in sc2.... hmmm i wonder
You couldn't be further from the truth, regarding the lurker. You also couldn't be more confusing, regarding the mutalisk o.O
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On March 12 2011 05:16 Jermstuddog wrote:
For sure all races have major losses. Obviously, the OP is contrived to make Zerg look like they're miles behind when, honestly, everybody lost something compared to BW.
I do feel that Zerg did lose more though, pretty much everything they have got weaker across the board. The ONLY solid up-trade Zerg got was the Queen.
Everything else has either seen a reduction in effectiveness or an increase in cost. Or in the case of one unnamed unit, both.
Oh wells. Guess we'll have to wait till HotS to see what unit they decide to make for us.
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T got changed from a 200/200 blob race to a multitasking rootin' tootin dropfest race, I couldnt be happier.
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On March 12 2011 05:14 Bill Murray wrote:
at least banelings dont have to be burrowed to kill
but that can still do that
i always found lurkers to be gimmicky and mainly useless
I also disagree when you said mutas are the carryover
micro in sc1 vs micro in sc2.... hmmm i wonder
wtf mate! Lurkers were a staple of zerg play in broodwar. No way were they gimmicky and mainly useless! I do really miss them in sc2. zerg in bw just had a better feeling than playing zerg in sc2 imo 
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On March 12 2011 04:40 wherebugsgo wrote:
Defiler vs infestor is actually somewhat fair. I'd take the defiler over the infestor, though, to be completely honest.
EDIT: A lot of these arguments can be made for Protoss too (and, to a lesser extent, Terran. Terran air and infantry is better but mech is worse)
The reaver>colossus, storm got nerfed, carriers are useless, no arbiters, speed zeals are gone, stalkers are comparatively weaker than dragoons, warp prisms are weaker, DTs more expensive, etc. etc.
Defilers aren't infestors though. Defilers are gone. Infestors are queens.
Carriers would probably be good if mech TvP happened more regularly. Jinro said MC's carrier response from GSL January worked in practice, at least.
Honestly overall I don't think there's that much of a reason to go back to the BW analogues to find problems with zerg units. The zerg units are just bad. They're all kind of shitty for one reason or another and you can tell just by looking at how they work in SC2.
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On March 12 2011 05:35 Turgid wrote:
Honestly overall I don't think there's that much of a reason to go back to the BW analogues to find problems with zerg units. The zerg units are just bad. They're all kind of shitty for one reason or another and you can tell just by looking at how they work in SC2.
I would agree with this for the most part. Looking at Zerg in SC2 you can see that something is wrong, you don't need to compare to BW to see that.
But when you do... it is just like pulling up a magnifying glass, showing you all the glaring flaws in glorious detail.
Zerg wasn't always this way... In past games, their units were actually good.
Looking at things this way actually makes me want to give every Zerg player out there who wins anything a super-huge kudos for just making things work...
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another thread comparing bw to sc2?
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On March 12 2011 05:07 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 05:05 LoLAdriankat wrote:Humans and Protoss evolve, Zerg devolves. I don't know. Scivessels and goliaths were a pretty big loss for T, and arbiters/goons/reavers were pretty damn pimp.
But you still got some decent units out of it. The Raven is pretty damn sweet as a replacement for a Scivessel and the Viking is a nice Goliath/Valkyrie replacement.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
i strongly agree with everything, though i do like sc2 mutas. maybe even more than the bw muta, but still - most changes to zerg from bw leave me wondering what kerrigan has been doing all this time.
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On March 12 2011 05:19 Catch]22 wrote:
T got changed from a 200/200 blob race to a multitasking rootin' tootin dropfest race, I couldnt be happier.
oO
Nice terran hate, but it looks like you've never watched a TvZ in BW, and probably neither a TvT between good players. And that you have a distorted vision of TvP... Though on the design plan, terran is the race that got out the best I feel.
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I'll do protoss version:
Arbiters -> Mothership
The only lore they could make up for this to make sense is that the Mothership is old technology that wasn't meant for combat lol ( im serious). Does the same as an arbiter but is far far slower, costs more, and you can only have 1! Vortex isn't nearly as good as stasis even though it fills the same roll (archon toilet removed). It breaks my heart to have a hero unit in sc2
Reavers -> Collosus
One is fun to use, and one is not. Collosus solely defines Protoss because you would be a fool not to go it every game of every matchup ( unless u like to 4gate).
corsair -> Phoenix
In Soviet Russia, units micro for you. AGAIN another unit that has the same role and almost the same abilities but just worse and less interesting.
Carrier -> Sc2 Carrier
Double the damage, over 9000 times as boring without micro.
Voidray -> Was an interesting unit until it got changed to work well with a death ball instead of using tactics.
The biggest one of all that breaks my heart every time i scout the terran early.
Probuu AKA meow -> Sc2 probe
You gotta wait for your shields to recharge and no ranged attack. It even loses to a drone in a fight. No manner pylon and scvs hide in buildings. How else am I suppose to win by the 4 minute mark?!?
I am too sad to finish TT
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On March 12 2011 06:30 MuTT wrote:
corsair -> Phoenix
In Soviet Russia, units micro for you.
Best part of the whole post IMO.
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so, they actually changed stuff? i was expecting sc1 with better graphics DUUUH
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On March 12 2011 06:51 qwaykee wrote:
so, they actually changed stuff? i was expecting sc1 with better graphics DUUUH
Posts like this one are so clever...
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Relax people. I think the OP is just comparing the actual look/power of zerg units, not comparing BW to SC2 as games themselves. SC2-strict fanboys are even worse than BW fanboys when it comes to defending their game imo :S
I do agree with the op though, zerg does need some diversity, or at least giving some zerg units more creativity/interesting factor. Perhaps another unit or some tech tree changes.
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On March 12 2011 05:14 Bill Murray wrote:
at least banelings dont have to be burrowed to kill
but that can still do that
i always found lurkers to be gimmicky and mainly useless
I also disagree when you said mutas are the carryover
micro in sc1 vs micro in sc2.... hmmm i wonder
I was surprised to see this view based on your post-count
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On March 12 2011 06:51 qwaykee wrote:
so, they actually changed stuff? i was expecting sc1 with better graphics DUUUH
A lot of us would have enjoyed that a lot. Change for the sake of change without improvement is useless. The old units units + micro tricks is what made BW a great game. A collosus will never give the same oooh as a reaver firing a shot. The swarmness of zerg with plague and dark swarm will never be lived up to by the infester poop they throw on the enemy. No more excitement of some idiot walking into a lot of spider mines. These days its just blob against blob.
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On March 12 2011 07:03 Marradron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 06:51 qwaykee wrote:
so, they actually changed stuff? i was expecting sc1 with better graphics DUUUH A lot of us would have enjoyed that a lot. Change for the sake of change without improvement is useless. The old units units + micro tricks is what made BW a great game. A collosus will never give the same oooh as a reaver firing a shot. The swarmness of zerg with plague and dark swarm will never be lived up to by the infester poop they throw on the enemy. No more excitement of some idiot walking into a lot of spider mines. These days its just blob against blob.
Yeah, i agree with both what you say and the OP. It's just the seriousness of some of the posters i was "referring" to. I miss stuff from BW too, but it's a new game and i enjoy it.
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On March 12 2011 05:07 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 05:05 LoLAdriankat wrote:Humans and Protoss evolve, Zerg devolves. I don't know. Scivessels and goliaths were a pretty big loss for T, and arbiters/goons/reavers were pretty damn pimp.
goons got replaced by a unit that is actually capable of walking in a straight line
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Lol I had never seen that comic before, totally apt to this thread.
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Corrupter equivalent is the devourer. They basically deleted a zerg flyer (scourge) and bettered the terran dropship ><. Can you imagine zerg with scourge lol. Hard counter colossus void ray with em.
Baneling is awesome. It's an infested terran at tier 1!
Hydralisks make me want to cry. They were my favorite unit since I first started brood war(5hatch hydra was the best strategy ever). Now they spit tic tacs
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As a Terran player, I definitely agree with a lot of these points. Zerglings, hydralisks, and ultras actually grew weaker and scourge and defilers were more dynamic than their SC2 counterparts.
However, I think banelings are an improvement to the lurker. I don't really see the lurker fitting into ZvT that well (no idea about other matchups). With the absence of science vessels you can control the map with mutalisks much longer and lurkers would probably get owned by marauders anyways. Marines also have 45 + 10 hp for whatever reason.
Queens obviously help the Zerg too.
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On March 12 2011 07:52 Umbrella wrote:
Marines also have 45 + 10 hp for whatever reason.
This has got to be my favorite balance gripe in SC2.
While every other T1 unit saw some sort of a nerf, The Marine got massive buffs in general and a nerf to stim (to keep them roughly the same when stimmed), to make non-stimmed Marines more viable. And honestly, I was totally cool with that. Non-stimmed Marines were pretty terrible by any standard. But then you look at their HP.
5 bonus HP in the early game doesn't make a huge difference. It's notable, but their 40% dps boost is a lot more notable.
But +15 HP in the mid-game when you have medivacs and stim running at full speed makes a HUGE difference.
M&Ms were hard enough in BW. Nothing wrong with them, but they were a solid base for the T army. Then you're randomly giving the fighter unit in this mix 30% more HP, doubling the rate at which the healer unit heals and throwing in dropship capabilities for free?
WTF??
Eh... getting off topic now... don't get me started on the Marine...
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On March 12 2011 04:09 Kukaracha wrote:
This is a very bad analysis. You see only bad points, which isn't possible considering that Zerg players do win. You're not taking a step back, you just dived right into it and lost all sight of what matters.
What you're basically saying is that SC2 units aren't BW units.
So?
He's saying SC2 units are utter crap rofl, and it's true.
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How about terran?
Im too lazy to make a comparison for all units but I can say in general that SC2 units >>>> BW units
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On March 12 2011 07:52 Umbrella wrote:
As a Terran player, I definitely agree with a lot of these points. Zerglings, hydralisks, and ultras actually grew weaker and scourge and defilers were more dynamic than their SC2 counterparts.
However, I think banelings are an improvement to the lurker. I don't really see the lurker fitting into ZvT that well (no idea about other matchups). With the absence of science vessels you can control the map with mutalisks much longer and lurkers would probably get owned by marauders anyways. Marines also have 45 + 10 hp for whatever reason.
Queens obviously help the Zerg too.
Well, lurker isn't as useful when you can just hop in your medics and fly over the lurkers. Kind of defeats the whole concept of lurker contains and ramp defenses... Just kind of hilarious how much better capabilities Terran has in SC2.
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statistics support the idea.. zerg is missing something
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On March 12 2011 10:24 SkelA wrote:
How about terran?
Im too lazy to make a comparison for all units but I can say in general that SC2 units >>>> BW units
marines got buffed, medics got combined with dropship, tanks don't overkill, marauders exist, vikings > goliaths cuz you can't do the ledge micro with carriers and shit, thors are great
Sci Vessel > Ravens
Vultures are probably better than blue flame but its pretty close
tvz in bw used to be amazing to watch cuz sk terran required such finesse and excellent micromanagement. Now every terran who can 1a and click can do marine micro vs anything zerg has
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On March 12 2011 12:53 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 10:24 SkelA wrote:
How about terran?
Im too lazy to make a comparison for all units but I can say in general that SC2 units >>>> BW units marines got buffed, medics got combined with dropship, tanks don't overkill, marauders exist, vikings > goliaths cuz you can't do the ledge micro with carriers and shit, thors are great Sci Vessel > Ravens Vultures are probably better than blue flame but its pretty close tvz in bw used to be amazing to watch cuz sk terran required such finesse and excellent micromanagement. Now every terran who can 1a and click can do marine micro vs anything zerg has
I thought they added a delay to tank shots (removing the instant damage), thus making them overkill again?
Marauders IMO have always been absolutely retarded units in every way possible (uninteresting, damage is retarded, tanky...) and medivacs are just beyond me.
As for Zerg...
I disagree with everyone who thinks Zerg needs the Lurker back. Yes, the Lurker was fucking awesome and it did it's job well. But I do believe that SC2 should be different enough to be a sequel, and not just an upgrade. And I don't really think that the Lurker woudl fit into current SC2 armies (even if ignoring the 'maraudres would probably own them anyways' argument -- which is totally true). I think that the Baneling is an acceptable trade and is interesting in it's own ways. Baneling mines and drops are especially fun to watch.
Infestors, too, are pretty baller and can be pretty exciting to watch. I just wouldn't compare them to the defiler. The infestor to me seems like the 'lower level' spellcaster, much like sentry and ghost. Except where the other two races have 'high level' spellcasters -- the raven and the HT -- Zerg doesnt. This is one of the things I'm hoping for in HotS... and I hope it isn't a defiler. >_>
Or at least isn't the same as the BW one (although I hope its equally as awesome  )
and no, the queen doesn't count as a spellcaster. If she does, so does an orbital command and a nexus.
But now guys, look at this list (my list, your list, whatever) of broken units and think about it a little. How would you fix this? The longer you try to fix this, the more you realize that this game is just fucking broken. I think that fixing SC2 to be as 'perfect' as BW -- in both balance and entertainment -- would require a total revamp.
Do you see this happening? I sure as fuck don't.
But hey, I'm no game developer. I'm no balance ...guy... thing. I'm not very creative. Maybe, hopefully, somehow... Blizzard is. I just doubt it.
+ Show Spoiler +But hey, it's not all bad. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the game isn't done yet (and won't be for another three goddamn years). There is still hope. It's defintely extremely far better than SC was at this stage. The tourneys are springing up everywhere, hype is growing, and games are fun to watch/play.
That uh... that post was longer than expected.
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On March 12 2011 03:50 Jermstuddog wrote:
So... We've gone through the beta and several months of release. Multiple top-end tournaments and tons of ladder games.
I think it's safe to say that Zerg players aren't missing anything at this point. It has all been tried over the past several months, and there have been SOME developments, but nothing truly impressive.
Zerg is broken, it's not a lack of good players utilizing their units in new ways. Still, that's not the point of this thread. The point is to ask a simple question: "What the hell happened to Zerg?"
All of zergs units got nerfed since Zerg went from having the worst economy to the best by adding the queen so their units went from being the best to the worst in order to compensate. If sc2 zerglings were as good as they were in sc1 zerg would be completely unstoppable.
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On March 12 2011 04:41 Jermstuddog wrote:
Yeah... comparing the near-useless queen of old to the one unit that is currently holding Zerg together in SC2 doesn't really line up with the gripe-making motive here. (also note that I left out Broodlords, which are hands-down better than Guardians)
Though I really liked the abilities from the old Queen, they were far too expensive for what they did to be utilized in BW.
New queen >>>>>>>> old queen.
Queen has become semi-standard recently against mech. Its all the rage now, funny as hell to see it pop the tanks into little broodlings
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On March 13 2011 05:50 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 04:41 Jermstuddog wrote:
Yeah... comparing the near-useless queen of old to the one unit that is currently holding Zerg together in SC2 doesn't really line up with the gripe-making motive here. (also note that I left out Broodlords, which are hands-down better than Guardians)
Though I really liked the abilities from the old Queen, they were far too expensive for what they did to be utilized in BW.
New queen >>>>>>>> old queen. Queen has become semi-standard recently against mech. Its all the rage now, funny as hell to see it pop the tanks into little broodlings
Hell, I was using Queens against mech 10 years ago.
The utility of the unit was never the problem, the cost of the spells is what always held her back. 150 energy to take out a single unit? Seriously?
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nothing happened to zerg particularly, bad game design happened to starcraft in general
i don't agree the races necessarily 'lost stuff'. we gained too much via the new macro mechanics and exaggerated strength of tier 1.5 units such as roaches, marauders, comparatively to the later tech
frankly, i like how zerg operates most of all 3 races, their tech paths are pretty definite, transitions are clear, etc. too bad they'll stay weak for a while to come because there's no way blizz will be able to balance the game around colo deathballs/mmm being retarded without destroying the races;
they'll need to fuck majorly with warpgate/reactors+mules and/or add new units and tinker with a whole lot of units, possibly changing requirements and such a la reaper fac req. (but you see what that did to the targeted unit)
it's how i feel about the current state of the game
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Funny how Zerg basically got detection for free in BW but Wraiths/DTs easily saw the most use in TvZ/PvZ
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On March 15 2011 02:58 Sybris wrote:
Funny how Zerg basically got detection for free in BW but Wraiths/DTs easily saw the most use in TvZ/PvZ
This is because the Zerg detection was pretty easy to shut down.
Overlords are floating pillows waiting to be obliterated.
Observers require that you bring your own detection + anti-air into the vicinity and you can't stop a scan.
Now...
I fear for the future:
Viking/Banshee/Ghost or Phoenix/DT is going to be a bitch to play against once people figure out how to do it without getting themselves killed in the process.
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On March 15 2011 06:15 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 02:58 Sybris wrote:
Funny how Zerg basically got detection for free in BW but Wraiths/DTs easily saw the most use in TvZ/PvZ This is because the Zerg detection was pretty easy to shut down. Overlords are floating pillows waiting to be obliterated. Observers require that you bring your own detection + anti-air into the vicinity and you can't stop a scan. Now... I fear for the future: Viking/Banshee/Ghost or Phoenix/DT is going to be a bitch to play against once people figure out how to do it without getting themselves killed in the process.
I do this constantly in PvZ. Phoenix/DT is pretty strong if you can pull it off correctly, because most Zergs don't know how to deal with it in the current SC2 state of the game.
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Agreed, one mistake as a zerg and you're dead. Its horseshit. I wish I didnt suck with other 2 races, Id switch.
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i think the main reason why zerg is broken is that everything hard counters zerg, but everything zerg does is essentially a hard counter with some minor exceptions.
zvt: Lings>tanks>blings>unmicroed marines(microed marines just kill everything.......)>lings
zvp: blink stalkers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything; hydras>Voidrays>>>Corrupters>Collosi>>>>>hydras>stalkers>roaches>zlots>lings>sentries>(everything because borcebields are imfalanced)
and its like magic how armies can just pass over 1!!!! baneling in your field of burrowed banelings.
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I miss allot from bw, but it would be a different game if they changed allot of it back.
Most of all I miss the defilers and lurkers.
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I play zerg too and I played bw. Personally my take on the matter is like this:
1. Zerglings. Yes they are less cost-effective than before, but remember, they used to be limited greatly by the larvae count. The thing is that now with queens, zerg have much more larvae than before as well as a stronger economy, so if zerglings were as strong as before they would be pretty broken.
2. Banelings vs Lurkers. I actually would not want banelings to be replaced by lurkers. Lurkers wouldn't do well with the speed-up creep mechanic, as when the zerg flanks rush in, they would take a long time to burrow and attack, giving the opposing army a chance to move away. Banelings on the other hand, benefit alot from the creep mechanic.
3. Hydralisk. The role of the "all-round ranged support" actually belongs to the roach now, which is very cost-effective, just abit less effective in terms of supply. The new hydra itself is abit subpar apart from anti-air, but since the roach is the real filler of the old hydra's role, it would be more fair to compare the roach to the old hydra, in which I think it does ok, giving significantly more tanking power in exchange for less DPS and no air attack capabilities.
4. Muta. Yes they cannot stack now, but you can control a flock of 30 mutas now much more easily. Surely that makes up for it to some extent.
5. Infestor vs Defiler. Yes I do agree that the defiler is much stronger, a single defiler could turn games around in BW. But the infestor comes out at an earlier stage than the defiler, so I suppose being slightly weaker is fair. Imagine if Dark Swarm was present at lair stage, the game would be crazy hard for Protoss and Terran.
Overall, I think Zerg units are pretty fine. Maybe we could use more variety at T3, but other than that, I don't have much complaints.
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^Agree. Also I feel zerglings got quite a buff since you can control an unlimited amount making flanking and runby's so much easier.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7469/69780026.jpg)
