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Umbrella
Taiwan936 Posts
However, I think banelings are an improvement to the lurker. I don't really see the lurker fitting into ZvT that well (no idea about other matchups). With the absence of science vessels you can control the map with mutalisks much longer and lurkers would probably get owned by marauders anyways. Marines also have 45 + 10 hp for whatever reason. Queens obviously help the Zerg too. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:52 Umbrella wrote: Marines also have 45 + 10 hp for whatever reason. This has got to be my favorite balance gripe in SC2. While every other T1 unit saw some sort of a nerf, The Marine got massive buffs in general and a nerf to stim (to keep them roughly the same when stimmed), to make non-stimmed Marines more viable. And honestly, I was totally cool with that. Non-stimmed Marines were pretty terrible by any standard. But then you look at their HP. 5 bonus HP in the early game doesn't make a huge difference. It's notable, but their 40% dps boost is a lot more notable. But +15 HP in the mid-game when you have medivacs and stim running at full speed makes a HUGE difference. M&Ms were hard enough in BW. Nothing wrong with them, but they were a solid base for the T army. Then you're randomly giving the fighter unit in this mix 30% more HP, doubling the rate at which the healer unit heals and throwing in dropship capabilities for free? WTF?? Eh... getting off topic now... don't get me started on the Marine... | ||
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
On March 12 2011 04:09 Kukaracha wrote: This is a very bad analysis. You see only bad points, which isn't possible considering that Zerg players do win. You're not taking a step back, you just dived right into it and lost all sight of what matters. What you're basically saying is that SC2 units aren't BW units. So? He's saying SC2 units are utter crap rofl, and it's true. | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13076 Posts
Im too lazy to make a comparison for all units but I can say in general that SC2 units >>>> BW units | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:52 Umbrella wrote: As a Terran player, I definitely agree with a lot of these points. Zerglings, hydralisks, and ultras actually grew weaker and scourge and defilers were more dynamic than their SC2 counterparts. However, I think banelings are an improvement to the lurker. I don't really see the lurker fitting into ZvT that well (no idea about other matchups). With the absence of science vessels you can control the map with mutalisks much longer and lurkers would probably get owned by marauders anyways. Marines also have 45 + 10 hp for whatever reason. Queens obviously help the Zerg too. Well, lurker isn't as useful when you can just hop in your medics and fly over the lurkers. Kind of defeats the whole concept of lurker contains and ramp defenses... Just kind of hilarious how much better capabilities Terran has in SC2. | ||
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GriMeR
United States148 Posts
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kaisr
Canada715 Posts
On March 12 2011 10:24 SkelA wrote: How about terran? Im too lazy to make a comparison for all units but I can say in general that SC2 units >>>> BW units marines got buffed, medics got combined with dropship, tanks don't overkill, marauders exist, vikings > goliaths cuz you can't do the ledge micro with carriers and shit, thors are great Sci Vessel > Ravens Vultures are probably better than blue flame but its pretty close tvz in bw used to be amazing to watch cuz sk terran required such finesse and excellent micromanagement. Now every terran who can 1a and click can do marine micro vs anything zerg has | ||
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Crazyeyes
Canada1342 Posts
On March 12 2011 12:53 kaisr wrote: marines got buffed, medics got combined with dropship, tanks don't overkill, marauders exist, vikings > goliaths cuz you can't do the ledge micro with carriers and shit, thors are great Sci Vessel > Ravens Vultures are probably better than blue flame but its pretty close tvz in bw used to be amazing to watch cuz sk terran required such finesse and excellent micromanagement. Now every terran who can 1a and click can do marine micro vs anything zerg has I thought they added a delay to tank shots (removing the instant damage), thus making them overkill again? Marauders IMO have always been absolutely retarded units in every way possible (uninteresting, damage is retarded, tanky...) and medivacs are just beyond me. As for Zerg... I disagree with everyone who thinks Zerg needs the Lurker back. Yes, the Lurker was fucking awesome and it did it's job well. But I do believe that SC2 should be different enough to be a sequel, and not just an upgrade. And I don't really think that the Lurker woudl fit into current SC2 armies (even if ignoring the 'maraudres would probably own them anyways' argument -- which is totally true). I think that the Baneling is an acceptable trade and is interesting in it's own ways. Baneling mines and drops are especially fun to watch. Infestors, too, are pretty baller and can be pretty exciting to watch. I just wouldn't compare them to the defiler. The infestor to me seems like the 'lower level' spellcaster, much like sentry and ghost. Except where the other two races have 'high level' spellcasters -- the raven and the HT -- Zerg doesnt. This is one of the things I'm hoping for in HotS... and I hope it isn't a defiler. >_> Or at least isn't the same as the BW one (although I hope its equally as awesome  )and no, the queen doesn't count as a spellcaster. If she does, so does an orbital command and a nexus. But now guys, look at this list (my list, your list, whatever) of broken units and think about it a little. How would you fix this? The longer you try to fix this, the more you realize that this game is just fucking broken. I think that fixing SC2 to be as 'perfect' as BW -- in both balance and entertainment -- would require a total revamp. Do you see this happening? I sure as fuck don't. But hey, I'm no game developer. I'm no balance ...guy... thing. I'm not very creative. Maybe, hopefully, somehow... Blizzard is. I just doubt it.  + Show Spoiler + But hey, it's not all bad. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the game isn't done yet (and won't be for another three goddamn years). There is still hope. It's defintely extremely far better than SC was at this stage. The tourneys are springing up everywhere, hype is growing, and games are fun to watch/play. That uh... that post was longer than expected. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:50 Jermstuddog wrote: So... We've gone through the beta and several months of release. Multiple top-end tournaments and tons of ladder games. I think it's safe to say that Zerg players aren't missing anything at this point. It has all been tried over the past several months, and there have been SOME developments, but nothing truly impressive. Zerg is broken, it's not a lack of good players utilizing their units in new ways. Still, that's not the point of this thread. The point is to ask a simple question: "What the hell happened to Zerg?" All of zergs units got nerfed since Zerg went from having the worst economy to the best by adding the queen so their units went from being the best to the worst in order to compensate. If sc2 zerglings were as good as they were in sc1 zerg would be completely unstoppable. | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On March 12 2011 04:41 Jermstuddog wrote: Yeah... comparing the near-useless queen of old to the one unit that is currently holding Zerg together in SC2 doesn't really line up with the gripe-making motive here. (also note that I left out Broodlords, which are hands-down better than Guardians) Though I really liked the abilities from the old Queen, they were far too expensive for what they did to be utilized in BW. New queen >>>>>>>> old queen. Queen has become semi-standard recently against mech. Its all the rage now, funny as hell to see it pop the tanks into little broodlings | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 13 2011 05:50 xarthaz wrote: Queen has become semi-standard recently against mech. Its all the rage now, funny as hell to see it pop the tanks into little broodlings Hell, I was using Queens against mech 10 years ago. The utility of the unit was never the problem, the cost of the spells is what always held her back. 150 energy to take out a single unit? Seriously? | ||
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anatem
Romania1369 Posts
i don't agree the races necessarily 'lost stuff'. we gained too much via the new macro mechanics and exaggerated strength of tier 1.5 units such as roaches, marauders, comparatively to the later tech frankly, i like how zerg operates most of all 3 races, their tech paths are pretty definite, transitions are clear, etc. too bad they'll stay weak for a while to come because there's no way blizz will be able to balance the game around colo deathballs/mmm being retarded without destroying the races; they'll need to fuck majorly with warpgate/reactors+mules and/or add new units and tinker with a whole lot of units, possibly changing requirements and such a la reaper fac req. (but you see what that did to the targeted unit) it's how i feel about the current state of the game | ||
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Sybris
30 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 15 2011 02:58 Sybris wrote: Funny how Zerg basically got detection for free in BW but Wraiths/DTs easily saw the most use in TvZ/PvZ This is because the Zerg detection was pretty easy to shut down. Overlords are floating pillows waiting to be obliterated. Observers require that you bring your own detection + anti-air into the vicinity and you can't stop a scan. Now... I fear for the future: Viking/Banshee/Ghost or Phoenix/DT is going to be a bitch to play against once people figure out how to do it without getting themselves killed in the process. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On March 15 2011 06:15 Jermstuddog wrote: This is because the Zerg detection was pretty easy to shut down. Overlords are floating pillows waiting to be obliterated. Observers require that you bring your own detection + anti-air into the vicinity and you can't stop a scan. Now... I fear for the future: Viking/Banshee/Ghost or Phoenix/DT is going to be a bitch to play against once people figure out how to do it without getting themselves killed in the process. I do this constantly in PvZ. Phoenix/DT is pretty strong if you can pull it off correctly, because most Zergs don't know how to deal with it in the current SC2 state of the game. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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Vestige
United States303 Posts
zvt: Lings>tanks>blings>unmicroed marines(microed marines just kill everything.......)>lings zvp: blink stalkers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything; hydras>Voidrays>>>Corrupters>Collosi>>>>>hydras>stalkers>roaches>zlots>lings>sentries>(everything because borcebields are imfalanced) and its like magic how armies can just pass over 1!!!! baneling in your field of burrowed banelings. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
Most of all I miss the defilers and lurkers. | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
1. Zerglings. Yes they are less cost-effective than before, but remember, they used to be limited greatly by the larvae count. The thing is that now with queens, zerg have much more larvae than before as well as a stronger economy, so if zerglings were as strong as before they would be pretty broken. 2. Banelings vs Lurkers. I actually would not want banelings to be replaced by lurkers. Lurkers wouldn't do well with the speed-up creep mechanic, as when the zerg flanks rush in, they would take a long time to burrow and attack, giving the opposing army a chance to move away. Banelings on the other hand, benefit alot from the creep mechanic. 3. Hydralisk. The role of the "all-round ranged support" actually belongs to the roach now, which is very cost-effective, just abit less effective in terms of supply. The new hydra itself is abit subpar apart from anti-air, but since the roach is the real filler of the old hydra's role, it would be more fair to compare the roach to the old hydra, in which I think it does ok, giving significantly more tanking power in exchange for less DPS and no air attack capabilities. 4. Muta. Yes they cannot stack now, but you can control a flock of 30 mutas now much more easily. Surely that makes up for it to some extent. 5. Infestor vs Defiler. Yes I do agree that the defiler is much stronger, a single defiler could turn games around in BW. But the infestor comes out at an earlier stage than the defiler, so I suppose being slightly weaker is fair. Imagine if Dark Swarm was present at lair stage, the game would be crazy hard for Protoss and Terran. Overall, I think Zerg units are pretty fine. Maybe we could use more variety at T3, but other than that, I don't have much complaints. | ||
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
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