This is a bit of a rant, so don't take it too seriously too. And please no fight in this thread. I just need to vent out some of my frustration.
This is to vent out some of my frustration that pop out each time a thread turns into bw vs sc2. I have my opinion on the subject, but that's not really in question. First, it's pretty funny how semantics are used in those debates. While most people say BW, there are quite a few people who would rather talk about sc1. Of course that's not innocent, and they are usually bw opponents. Ah, what's in a name ? In this case, there is a lot : by mentionning the number, it is a lot easier to talk of BW as of something of the past. Ahh, the power of semantics^^
Which leads me to the next thing. People that follow bw are not nostalgic. Of course they can be nostlagic about some stuffs, like one base TvZ play, Boxer bunker rushing Yellow (those people are bad human beings^^), foreigners beating koreans in WCG (Androis, PJ etc), but we are not nostlagic of the game. Why ? Nostlagia : A bittersweet longing for things, persons, or situations of the past. Well, yeah, BW is not the past. It can still be played, buyed (it must be the oldest game with BG1 still sold to the store where I buy video games), and moreover watched. I'd even say that the average quality of games has never been as high, and watching as enjoyable (if you don't hate Flash I guess).
And so, nostlagia is not the reason we like bw graphics. Guess what, I picked up Planescape Torment a month ago, and I did not find the game ugly. I picked up FF6 6 years ago, and I found the graphics pretty (and I still do). There are many people who enjoy pre 1420 paintings, and even more than some more "realist" paintings from the 19th. Would you call that nostalgia ?
Therefore, I implore everyone to stop saying stuff like "bw was", or "in bw there was". Present.
The most annoying anti-bw posts in my opinion are of course the "sc2 is less about mechanics and more about strategy" type (the formulation chosen here is pretty optimistic). Well, if someone thinks that, he just does not know anything about BW.
By the way I regularly watch a few SC2 games, if only to make fun of my IRL friends who follow that scene (btw blizzard, please make zerg stronger, I need Zergbong to be good^^). And because, we may never know, I might enjoy some one day. Oh I also often watch Quake games, and I find that extremely entertaining, so maybe we're not as close minded and elitist as some might think.
Finally, another sort of annoying post is the random BW fan who bash sc2 without reason ("sc2 still sucks lol"). I like to believe we're an awesome community, please don't make me ashamed.
/end rant PS: I love you manifesto7, and you all bw streamers, and everyone else who still cares about BW =) PPS : I'm a bit tired ATM, I hope I won't offend anyone.
On March 07 2011 15:32 huameng wrote: I approve of this message... but look at your signature man. Come on -___-
Oh, I take it more as a joke you know. I found that post pretty funny that's all (and it also reflects my opinion, and can be seen as a bit trollish I know). But it did lack something else at least.
Honestly though people are doing much better with the random sc2 trolls. SC2 has been mentioned on streams before, and even stuff like BW is old and outdated and people have responded calmly or just ignored it.
Yea, its stupid, but just ignoring it really is the best option. If people never get a reaction they won't even bother since that is pretty much the only reason they are posting that garbage anyway. If its truly ignorance trying to explain can be a good course of action, but some people just don't wanna listen.
And to any of you BW players randomly flaming SC2, just stop. In my opinion BW forums and posters in general tend to do a much better job with quality posting (no I am not saying all SC2 posters are bad by any means, there are many very high quality posters, but I do feel there is alot more garabge in SC2 forum as compared to BW forum), no need to drag it down with meaningless hate crap.
I just hate when people on the WCG thread were like "BW IS dead!! FLASH JAEDONG BISU STORK play SC2!!" EDIT: Also people saying that WCG means that BW is dead is bullshit too.
L_Master is right, I think the saying is "don't feed the troll" or something? But anyways, that's a good way to just let the bw vs sc2 debates to stop. Just ignore it.
The 'SC2 is more strategical' is the most annoying thing. There's nothing in the game that makes it MORE strategical... if anything i'd say there's infact less viable strategies available than BW, because you don't have builds relying solely on mechanics like some of the most exciting BW builds: 2port wraith, sair/reaver, 2hatch muta. There's even some which are too mechanically intensive for almost everyone like Queen's ensnaring bio, or heavy harass based PvZ like Snow and Bisu do.
SC2 has no equivalent to those and i don't want someone to pop up and say it hasn't been discovered yet either because that's a poor excuse. It's not as if everyone came into SC2 losing all knowledge gained because of BW; the scene didn't have to start from scratch. We know if a unit is going to have potential or not. It's not like defilers becoming used later in BW because that was due to mechanics. Now SC2 is a big drop down in that, nothing is out of reach.
Though I'm on the side of bw, I'll qualify what I think people mean when they mention sc2 being more strategical than mechanical:
While BW pros obviously have a crazy good strategical grasp and repertoire of builds, most people playing (read: D or below) are much more limited by their mechanics than by strategy. In SC2, since the mechanics are so much easier, the strategy element is more accessible for the average player.
Therefore, as a player, SC2 seems more strategic because the mechanics playing field is evened out a bit. In BW, if you're playing against someone much better than you, as long as their build resembles something that can kill or outproduce you (and not die to your stupid D-level cheeses and all-ins), they'll beat you no matter what you do.
The effect still exists in SC2 of course (like that guy on reddit who pure stalker macro'd his way to diamond), but its generally easier to get over that hurdle, and the matchmaking system makes even silver vs silver players think that their strategy matters more than their macro (lol noobs). Actually, I'd go so far as to say the effect is exactly the same (mechanics is still probably the biggest determining factor between bad players), but it's just harder to notice because you don't seem absolutely horrible to yourself with bad mechanics.
I think i´ts funny how everyone is saying that sc2 is way easier and that you don´t need so good mecahnics and then when i watch any sc2 stream people still are f-ing horrible at this game. I mean even the people who are considered "top foreigners" are still horrible at this game i just can´t believe no one else is seeing that.
Omg what an awesome post. I agree with all you've said, but especially the part about nostalgia. It just angers me so much when someone says I can't let go of the past and that I'm looking at the things through the nostalgia tinted glasses, just because I enjoy watching and playing BW currently.
This is also true for the Teamliquid site, not just BW. A lot of old school members here are saying "I remember in my time, before the influx of these new SC2 kids, things were better...". I always chuckle at posts that starts with "In my time..." and usually stop reading after that, but there's no denying that things have changed, especially for the people still into the BW. And it's not just the nostalgia speaking when they say stuff like that, because BW section of this site is becoming a small niche community itself, but I'm actually perfectly ok with that. -.- It just sucks when there's a thread concerning both sides of the site, like the recent WCG one. All shit breaks lose then, from both sides...
Also, you forgot the most annoying argument that comes up in BW - SC2 debates. I just feel like punching a wall every time some SC2 player says something like "SC2 is far ahead of SC1 was few months after it's release.".
Though I'm on the side of bw, I'll qualify what I think people mean when they mention sc2 being more strategical than mechanical:
While BW pros obviously have a crazy good strategical grasp and repertoire of builds, most people playing (read: D or below) are much more limited by their mechanics than by strategy. In SC2, since the mechanics are so much easier, the strategy element is more accessible for the average player.
Therefore, as a player, SC2 seems more strategic because the mechanics playing field is evened out a bit. In BW, if you're playing against someone much better than you, as long as their build resembles something that can kill or outproduce you (and not die to your stupid D-level cheeses and all-ins), they'll beat you no matter what you do.
The effect still exists in SC2 of course (like that guy on reddit who pure stalker macro'd his way to diamond), but its generally easier to get over that hurdle, and the matchmaking system makes even silver vs silver players think that their strategy matters more than their macro (lol noobs). Actually, I'd go so far as to say the effect is exactly the same (mechanics is still probably the biggest determining factor between bad players), but it's just harder to notice because you don't seem absolutely horrible to yourself with bad mechanics.
Well, I'll just say that I think even at low level in bw, strategy is a very big factor in the outcome of game. I'm like D at best, and I'm utterly convinced that C people would rape me everytime not only because of better mechanics, but also because they understand the game better than I do, and so they will react correctly to whatever I'm doing. I think one should focus in great part on mechanics to improve, but strategy is also important. That's the impression I have when I see B people talking about strategy anyway, I might be ok when I see the whole map, but with only one side and limited time, I'm really behind in thinking. Hey, I'd even say that when I do FFA on BGH with some friend who have never logged on ICCup, strategy is a deciding factor.
The 'SC2 is more strategical' is the most annoying thing. There's nothing in the game that makes it MORE strategical... if anything i'd say there's infact less viable strategies available than BW, because you don't have builds relying solely on mechanics like some of the most exciting BW builds: 2port wraith, sair/reaver, 2hatch muta. There's even some which are too mechanically intensive for almost everyone like Queen's ensnaring bio, or heavy harass based PvZ like Snow and Bisu do.
SC2 has no equivalent to those and i don't want someone to pop up and say it hasn't been discovered yet either because that's a poor excuse. It's not as if everyone came into SC2 losing all knowledge gained because of BW; the scene didn't have to start from scratch. We know if a unit is going to have potential or not. It's not like defilers becoming used later in BW because that was due to mechanics. Now SC2 is a big drop down in that, nothing is out of reach.
Yeah, that's also one reason I'm very annoyed when BW people say that Flash is a macrobot, while the difference with him and other player is mainly strategy. In fact those ressemble what I sometime see when I go in a SC2 LR thread where people debate wether a bw ex-pro is good or not ("clicking fast is no longer useful so he won't be particularly good", lol).
On March 07 2011 23:59 Clamev wrote: I think i´ts funny how everyone is saying that sc2 is way easier and that you don´t need so good mecahnics and then when i watch any sc2 stream people still are f-ing horrible at this game. I mean even the people who are considered "top foreigners" are still horrible at this game i just can´t believe no one else is seeing that.
I would not have said that so harshly, but agree to an extent. Once bored out of my mind, I tried a random featured stream. It was Sjow I believe, and he was in the process of getting raped by white-ra, who was dropping zealots in his base. When I asked how good this guy was in chat, because his reaction timing was terrible, I was asked if I was a troll, and if I knew anything about sc2... Honestly, losing to zealot drops while going bio, pretty funny... And I'm pretty sure reaction timing is not such a different mechanic as in bw...
On March 08 2011 00:04 2Pacalypse- wrote: Omg what an awesome post. I agree with all you've said, but especially the part about nostalgia. It just angers me so much when someone says I can't let go of the past and that I'm looking at the things through the nostalgia tinted glasses, just because I enjoy watching and playing BW currently.
This is also true for the Teamliquid site, not just BW. A lot of old school members here are saying "I remember in my time, before the influx of these new SC2 kids, things were better...". I always chuckle at posts that starts with "In my time..." and usually stop reading after that, but there's no denying that things have changed, especially for the people still into the BW. And it's not just the nostalgia speaking when they say stuff like that, because BW section of this site is becoming a small niche community itself, but I'm actually perfectly ok with that. -.- It just sucks when there's a thread concerning both sides of the site, like the recent WCG one. All shit breaks lose then, from both sides...
Also, you forgot the most annoying argument that comes up in BW - SC2 debates. I just feel like punching a wall every time some SC2 player says something like "SC2 is far ahead of SC1 was few months after it's release.".
Agree with you too^^ And yeah, both side can be pretty annoying, that's really a pity. FOr the last part you're right, how could I forgot. Man first week of beta, there were already people trying to adapt the bisu build in sc2, and some people would like to believe that everything has to be reinvented... Yeah, nobody knows basic concept like expanding, making workers, timing attack or anything that took year to develop. Without talking about the scale of the scene, I hope for sc2 people it is bigger than sc1 in 1997...
On March 07 2011 23:59 Clamev wrote: I think i´ts funny how everyone is saying that sc2 is way easier and that you don´t need so good mecahnics and then when i watch any sc2 stream people still are f-ing horrible at this game. I mean even the people who are considered "top foreigners" are still horrible at this game i just can´t believe no one else is seeing that.
Well they are not going to be any worse at SC2 than they would be at BW.
And so, nostlagia is not the reason we like bw graphics. Guess what, I picked up Planescape Torment a month ago, and I did not find the game ugly. I picked up FF6 6 years ago, and I found the graphics pretty (and I still do). There are many people who enjoy pre 1420 paintings, and even more than some more "realist" paintings from the 19th. Would you call that nostalgia ?
I feel the same way. SC2 graphics feel like the "emperor's new clothes". 3D ruined strategy video games imho. Do we really need to zoom or pan? It's too bad Blizzard waited so long to make SC2 and was virtually forced to use it. Just as the sprite based games started to look great (AOE2, RedAlert2, Civ3, Diablo2, Baldur's Gate, etc, etc, etc just to name a few towards the sprite based gaming end), the 3d bomb was dropped and "art" was changed forever. I'm not saying 3d is bad, it just should be left for FPS. 3d just doesn't seem to have the ability to give the beaten down and weathered look. That Terry Gilliam look that was so special about BWar (Think Terran briefing room) is lost. Or maybe I'm just a bad art critic.
Good post, change sucks for some people that they cannot accept it. I live the life that most should embrace. I love watching both games and playing both games. It must be a rare trait the way these forums look some days.
On March 08 2011 00:04 2Pacalypse- wrote: Also, you forgot the most annoying argument that comes up in BW - SC2 debates. I just feel like punching a wall every time some SC2 player says something like "SC2 is far ahead of SC1 was few months after it's release.".
The other side of the coin to this is the people who go "SC2 sucks because no one is playing at the level of the BW pro's". Those make me pretty mad at the same time as the posters who want BW to die and say it is a shit game. I guess that is the downside to liking both games.
EPT
