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On March 05 2011 09:39 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:17 Hynda wrote:
This guy is a bully and c**t, he actually wants people to fail, he sets up traps for people to fail so that he can bully them some more. As a teacher you want your students to succed ALWAYS, you never ever want them to fail. If you have a system where you end it on a specific time without letting your students round of their awnsers then you are the problem. The fact that you can fail someone for trying his best is beyond me. You are aware that the prof and the TA are two different people, right?
Not at all, regardless, remove that part and replace it with TA then. And obviously any teacher that allows any "TA" (please do inform me what it stands for... Test Addentant perhaps? is just as much in the wrong.
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On March 05 2011 09:30 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +
Rules are rules. If a student has a problem with the rule, he should bring it up with the professor before the exam, not after the fact. I wouldn't consider it a trap because he specifically went over his policy in a previous class like you said. I really respect the prof/TA for sticking to his guns, whereas in my experience most profs/TAs are pathetically easy for students to walk over, and they take advantage of that.
This is peoples futures. Setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt is malicious bullshit. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully. What if he had said "you can't use the word "and" " or the letter "S" for that matter. would it have been "Rules are rules" then? And yes asking someone to stop writing mid sentence is just as unreasonable as the above mentioned suggestion, it can make or break an entire essay if you're not allowed to round up.
I think what is just isn't necessarily the question here. In a university classroom, the professor is basically the law. Just like a judge in the courthouse or an Admiral on a warship. It can be unfair and tyrannical but at least in this student's case, he had the option to
1. not go to university
2. not take that class
3. stop writing
It may not be right (or "write," hehe) but it was the "malicious bullshit" rule. I think it's unfortunate and if I ran the classroom, I would not do that but in some environments, power is legitimately used in such a manner.
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On March 05 2011 09:39 elmizzt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:30 Hynda wrote:On March 05 2011 09:24 mikeymoo wrote:On March 05 2011 09:17 Hynda wrote:
What a complete asshat. If he had done that on any of the places I've studied at he would have been fired in an instant. Wanting to finish something you've really worked hard for to show ambition to get the absolute most out of your work, is not something that should be punished for. There is no line of work were you will ask to not round something up or take time to finish it, none. You're not going to leave work the moment the clock hits 5 if you are in the middle of a meeting. You don't see articles in papers that just end mid word. It doesn't happen.
This guy is a bully and c**t, he actually wants people to fail, he sets up traps for people to fail so that he can bully them some more. As a teacher you want your students to succed ALWAYS, you never ever want them to fail. If you have a system where you end it on a specific time without letting your students round of their awnsers then you are the problem. The fact that you can fail someone for trying his best is beyond me.
The only bad judgement in this thread is yours for thinking that the professor had any right to act the way he did, and the schools for letting the bastard keep his job. The bad judgment is definitely the student's. If your prof was this strict, would you consider cheating? I'm not agreeing that the prof is right, but that's out of my hands. These are his rules. You play by them. I'm not about to contest that. The "right" decision doesn't refer to anything moral, it was just definitely the wrong decision to continue writing. This is the second test in this class and he was just as strict on the first. The rules were extremely clear. The prof even explained his method of testing for about twenty minutes in a previous lecture. It's not cheating, its rounding of your awnsers there is a whole world of difference. The fact that this professor abuses his powers is what's wrong. Just accepting it as a bad call from the students furthers this atrocious behaviour from the teacher. It's not acceptable behaviour as a teacher. If I told I would punch you if you said the word "Dung" then it's still my fault if I punch you, because there was no reason. Perhaps it's cultural diffrences but what level of education is this? It at least sounds like you're not kids anymore and he shouldn't be able to carry on like this. If he a 20 minute lecture on explaining a unfair, unreasonable and power abusing system then at least in any class I've been it would have been instantly contested. There is no reason other than power abuse for him to act the way he does, and the sad part is that it seems the students don't know their own power.
Rules are rules. If a student has a problem with the rule, he should bring it up with the professor before the exam, not after the fact. I wouldn't consider it a trap because he specifically went over his policy in a previous class like you said. I really respect the prof/TA for sticking to his guns, whereas in my experience most profs/TAs are pathetically easy for students to walk over, and they take advantage of that.
This is peoples futures setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully. What if he had said "you can't use the word "and" " or the letter "S" for that matter. would it have been "Rules are rules" then? No, in that case the student should approach the professor and discuss the rules with him before taking the exam. The student in this case clearly understood and accepted the rules, and tried to circumvent them, also commonly known as cheating. He should count himself lucky that he wasn't reported to student conduct or academic integrity instead of just failing that one test. Sadly people are not robots. It's not cheating, it's something you do because the adrenaline is pumping and you want to show how good you are. There is no reason ever to discourage that. Regardless if you think of it as cheating however, it's still wrong. It contradicts everything that education stands for, I can accept that we have diffrent views on what you would consider cheating, but I could never ever accept that someone would get failed for something as minor as this.
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If you haven't learned by that time to follow instructions properly then you need to be taught a lesson.
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On March 05 2011 09:41 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:39 munchmunch wrote:On March 05 2011 09:17 Hynda wrote:
This guy is a bully and c**t, he actually wants people to fail, he sets up traps for people to fail so that he can bully them some more. As a teacher you want your students to succed ALWAYS, you never ever want them to fail. If you have a system where you end it on a specific time without letting your students round of their awnsers then you are the problem. The fact that you can fail someone for trying his best is beyond me. You are aware that the prof and the TA are two different people, right? Not at all, regardless, remove that part and replace it with TA then. And obviously any teacher that allows any "TA" (please do inform me what it stands for... Test Addentant perhaps? is just as much in the wrong.
Teacher's assistant probably.
Yeah, I don't agree with that teacher, that's an very asshole-y way to conduct an exam. Very. It just frustrates people. If you do it "normaly" only a very small fraction of the students will take the extra extra time to write, and at that, not for long.
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5003 Posts
This is peoples futures. Setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt is malicious bullshit. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully.
As far as I know, keeping "arbitrary" rules and respecting other people's way of doing things is quite important in anything you end up doing.
It is the kid's future, but honestly, remember it is the kid's decision to gamble on it, not the teacher's.
If you honestly think this is bullying then I really don't know what to say, but rules are rules and it was 100% the kid's decision -- Hell, the kid could go to the prof afterwards, say he was really sorry etc and just explain to him that he was panicking or something like that and work out something with the prof. Honestly, I really don't like your view of the world where you are allowed to break rules just because YOU find them arbitrary and not get punished for it (and of course, if you're punished it's just "bullying").
Tough shit.
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On March 05 2011 09:43 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:30 Hynda wrote:
Rules are rules. If a student has a problem with the rule, he should bring it up with the professor before the exam, not after the fact. I wouldn't consider it a trap because he specifically went over his policy in a previous class like you said. I really respect the prof/TA for sticking to his guns, whereas in my experience most profs/TAs are pathetically easy for students to walk over, and they take advantage of that.
This is peoples futures. Setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt is malicious bullshit. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully. What if he had said "you can't use the word "and" " or the letter "S" for that matter. would it have been "Rules are rules" then? And yes asking someone to stop writing mid sentence is just as unreasonable as the above mentioned suggestion, it can make or break an entire essay if you're not allowed to round up. I think what is just isn't necessarily the question here. In a university classroom, the professor is basically the law. Just like a judge in the courthouse or an Admiral on a warship. It can be unfair and tyrannical but at least in this student's case, he had the option to 1. not go to university 2. not take that class 3. stop writing It may not be right (or "write," hehe) but it was the "malicious bullshit" rule. I think it's unfortunate and if I ran the classroom, I would not do that but in some environments, power is legitimately used in such a manner.
No this is the mentality that needs to be washed out. If you behave in a unacceptable manner, then you are the problem. Not the ones forced upon people in the class room. No you don't have a choice because some classes are required for you to take to advance to the stuff you want to do. I hate it when people think they are just someone elses bitch for no reason. You pretty much never just have to take it up your backside. All rules should fill a purpose that can be explained to you within reason. For example, you can't use your phone. That's explainable within reason.
If there were no students the schools would all die out, they are there for you no the other way around.
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Just because everyone saw him get red Xed doesn't meant that it won't be graded after a stern meeting with the prof.
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On March 05 2011 09:44 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:39 elmizzt wrote:On March 05 2011 09:30 Hynda wrote:On March 05 2011 09:24 mikeymoo wrote:On March 05 2011 09:17 Hynda wrote:
What a complete asshat. If he had done that on any of the places I've studied at he would have been fired in an instant. Wanting to finish something you've really worked hard for to show ambition to get the absolute most out of your work, is not something that should be punished for. There is no line of work were you will ask to not round something up or take time to finish it, none. You're not going to leave work the moment the clock hits 5 if you are in the middle of a meeting. You don't see articles in papers that just end mid word. It doesn't happen.
This guy is a bully and c**t, he actually wants people to fail, he sets up traps for people to fail so that he can bully them some more. As a teacher you want your students to succed ALWAYS, you never ever want them to fail. If you have a system where you end it on a specific time without letting your students round of their awnsers then you are the problem. The fact that you can fail someone for trying his best is beyond me.
The only bad judgement in this thread is yours for thinking that the professor had any right to act the way he did, and the schools for letting the bastard keep his job. The bad judgment is definitely the student's. If your prof was this strict, would you consider cheating? I'm not agreeing that the prof is right, but that's out of my hands. These are his rules. You play by them. I'm not about to contest that. The "right" decision doesn't refer to anything moral, it was just definitely the wrong decision to continue writing. This is the second test in this class and he was just as strict on the first. The rules were extremely clear. The prof even explained his method of testing for about twenty minutes in a previous lecture. It's not cheating, its rounding of your awnsers there is a whole world of difference. The fact that this professor abuses his powers is what's wrong. Just accepting it as a bad call from the students furthers this atrocious behaviour from the teacher. It's not acceptable behaviour as a teacher. If I told I would punch you if you said the word "Dung" then it's still my fault if I punch you, because there was no reason. Perhaps it's cultural diffrences but what level of education is this? It at least sounds like you're not kids anymore and he shouldn't be able to carry on like this. If he a 20 minute lecture on explaining a unfair, unreasonable and power abusing system then at least in any class I've been it would have been instantly contested. There is no reason other than power abuse for him to act the way he does, and the sad part is that it seems the students don't know their own power.
Rules are rules. If a student has a problem with the rule, he should bring it up with the professor before the exam, not after the fact. I wouldn't consider it a trap because he specifically went over his policy in a previous class like you said. I really respect the prof/TA for sticking to his guns, whereas in my experience most profs/TAs are pathetically easy for students to walk over, and they take advantage of that.
This is peoples futures setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully. What if he had said "you can't use the word "and" " or the letter "S" for that matter. would it have been "Rules are rules" then? No, in that case the student should approach the professor and discuss the rules with him before taking the exam. The student in this case clearly understood and accepted the rules, and tried to circumvent them, also commonly known as cheating. He should count himself lucky that he wasn't reported to student conduct or academic integrity instead of just failing that one test. Sadly people are not robots. It's not cheating, it's something you do because the adrenaline is pumping and you want to show how good you are. There is no reason ever to discourage that. Regardless if you think of it as cheating however, it's still wrong. It contradicts everything that education stands for, I can accept that we have diffrent views on what you would consider cheating, but I could never ever accept that someone would get failed for something as minor as this.
I'm not sure what is robotic about being able to stop filling out a scantron that has been counting down for the entire length of the test period, sounds an alarm, and then being told twice to put down your pencil. Part of getting an education is learning how to properly manage resources including time.
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On March 05 2011 09:51 elmizzt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:44 Hynda wrote:On March 05 2011 09:39 elmizzt wrote:On March 05 2011 09:30 Hynda wrote:On March 05 2011 09:24 mikeymoo wrote:On March 05 2011 09:17 Hynda wrote:
What a complete asshat. If he had done that on any of the places I've studied at he would have been fired in an instant. Wanting to finish something you've really worked hard for to show ambition to get the absolute most out of your work, is not something that should be punished for. There is no line of work were you will ask to not round something up or take time to finish it, none. You're not going to leave work the moment the clock hits 5 if you are in the middle of a meeting. You don't see articles in papers that just end mid word. It doesn't happen.
This guy is a bully and c**t, he actually wants people to fail, he sets up traps for people to fail so that he can bully them some more. As a teacher you want your students to succed ALWAYS, you never ever want them to fail. If you have a system where you end it on a specific time without letting your students round of their awnsers then you are the problem. The fact that you can fail someone for trying his best is beyond me.
The only bad judgement in this thread is yours for thinking that the professor had any right to act the way he did, and the schools for letting the bastard keep his job. The bad judgment is definitely the student's. If your prof was this strict, would you consider cheating? I'm not agreeing that the prof is right, but that's out of my hands. These are his rules. You play by them. I'm not about to contest that. The "right" decision doesn't refer to anything moral, it was just definitely the wrong decision to continue writing. This is the second test in this class and he was just as strict on the first. The rules were extremely clear. The prof even explained his method of testing for about twenty minutes in a previous lecture. It's not cheating, its rounding of your awnsers there is a whole world of difference. The fact that this professor abuses his powers is what's wrong. Just accepting it as a bad call from the students furthers this atrocious behaviour from the teacher. It's not acceptable behaviour as a teacher. If I told I would punch you if you said the word "Dung" then it's still my fault if I punch you, because there was no reason. Perhaps it's cultural diffrences but what level of education is this? It at least sounds like you're not kids anymore and he shouldn't be able to carry on like this. If he a 20 minute lecture on explaining a unfair, unreasonable and power abusing system then at least in any class I've been it would have been instantly contested. There is no reason other than power abuse for him to act the way he does, and the sad part is that it seems the students don't know their own power.
Rules are rules. If a student has a problem with the rule, he should bring it up with the professor before the exam, not after the fact. I wouldn't consider it a trap because he specifically went over his policy in a previous class like you said. I really respect the prof/TA for sticking to his guns, whereas in my experience most profs/TAs are pathetically easy for students to walk over, and they take advantage of that.
This is peoples futures setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully. What if he had said "you can't use the word "and" " or the letter "S" for that matter. would it have been "Rules are rules" then? No, in that case the student should approach the professor and discuss the rules with him before taking the exam. The student in this case clearly understood and accepted the rules, and tried to circumvent them, also commonly known as cheating. He should count himself lucky that he wasn't reported to student conduct or academic integrity instead of just failing that one test. Sadly people are not robots. It's not cheating, it's something you do because the adrenaline is pumping and you want to show how good you are. There is no reason ever to discourage that. Regardless if you think of it as cheating however, it's still wrong. It contradicts everything that education stands for, I can accept that we have diffrent views on what you would consider cheating, but I could never ever accept that someone would get failed for something as minor as this. I'm not sure what is robotic about being able to stop filling out a scantron that has been counting down for the entire length of the test period, sounds an alarm, and then being told twice to put down your pencil. Part of getting an education is learning how to properly manage resources including time. indeed it is. Managing time is important, but having not flexibility about is counter productive it teaches you that what you actually do isn't important. Rounding of your paper won't save you if you havn't managed your time.
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It's more about whether this kind of practice is beneficial to an educational environment in any way whatsoever.
Of course the kid should have observed the rule. Of course, the rule should not exist in the first place.
Those two things can co-exist rather reasonably.
The problem is that the kid has been punished severely for breaking his side of the bargain. The professor, on the other hand, will not be punished at all for fostering an educational environment which is not actually designed to educate.
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From my understanding of the original post...
1) There are rules.
3) The rules include a windows alert via timer and the words "Stop writing please" twice. If you are still writing at the end of the second saying, you get a Red X.
2) This rule is known to the class.
4) There is a punishment for breaking this rule.
5) The punishment is a red X that means your exam doesn't get graded.
6) The punishment is known to the class.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. One thing I learned in college is that there are arbitrary stupid rules and one needs to follow them at times. This professor is teaching that lesson as well as the material.
If the situation was...
1) The professor did not clearly explain rules for taking the exam and punishments for going over the time.
2) The professor gave an exam and called time
3) A student finished answering one question momentarily after
4) The professor said "you get a zero" to the student.
I would STILL consider the professor in the right but I'd consider him a ****-face, avoid taking that professor ever again, highly recommend against them, and generally complain that "next time you should explain the rules and punishments very clearly. However, I would respect the teacher's call here. The teacher did say "stop writing" and the student disobeyed.
There are dumb rules you must follow in school.
There are dumb rules you must follow in life.
When the punishments are clearly explained... weigh the consequences before breaking the rules. It's your own fault for breaking a clearly explained and defined rule with an explicit punishment.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I used to share your exact same views, Hynda.
But then I grew up and realized that the world did not run on my ideals. Maybe you will realize this some day, or maybe you will become a revolutionary figure ten years from now... who knows. 
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On March 05 2011 09:50 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:43 slyboogie wrote:On March 05 2011 09:30 Hynda wrote:
Rules are rules. If a student has a problem with the rule, he should bring it up with the professor before the exam, not after the fact. I wouldn't consider it a trap because he specifically went over his policy in a previous class like you said. I really respect the prof/TA for sticking to his guns, whereas in my experience most profs/TAs are pathetically easy for students to walk over, and they take advantage of that.
This is peoples futures. Setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt is malicious bullshit. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully. What if he had said "you can't use the word "and" " or the letter "S" for that matter. would it have been "Rules are rules" then? And yes asking someone to stop writing mid sentence is just as unreasonable as the above mentioned suggestion, it can make or break an entire essay if you're not allowed to round up. I think what is just isn't necessarily the question here. In a university classroom, the professor is basically the law. Just like a judge in the courthouse or an Admiral on a warship. It can be unfair and tyrannical but at least in this student's case, he had the option to 1. not go to university 2. not take that class 3. stop writing It may not be right (or "write," hehe) but it was the "malicious bullshit" rule. I think it's unfortunate and if I ran the classroom, I would not do that but in some environments, power is legitimately used in such a manner. No this is the mentality that needs to be washed out. If you behave in a unacceptable manner, then you are the problem. Not the ones forced upon people in the class room. No you don't have a choice because some classes are required for you to take to advance to the stuff you want to do. I hate it when people think they are just someone elses bitch for no reason. You pretty much never just have to take it up your backside. If there were no students the schools would all die out, they are there for you no the other way around.
This is a very Ethics 100 point. Power naturally causes this reaction, particularly when the action is contrary to your morality. That is fine and I respect those feelings. However, this is not a system where "power is derived from the people," or some kind of democratic forum. It is a classroom where the professor commands some kind of authority that domineers over your ideas of fairness and justice. I'm sorry but his classroom, his rules. This DOES NOT apply to a government or society.
If you feel that you do not have the agency to NOT attend the class, that is fine. Then you have to attend the class with the given rules where you now have two options. Follow the rules and hate yourself OR violate the rules, retain your dignity and suffer the unjust consequences.
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On March 05 2011 09:49 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +This is peoples futures. Setting up arbitrary rules that has no effect other than failing people that try hard to show of what they've learnt is malicious bullshit. It goes against every fiber of what a teacher should be doing providing nothing but a oppertunity to bully. As far as I know, keeping "arbitrary" rules and respecting other people's way of doing things is quite important in anything you end up doing. It is the kid's future, but honestly, remember it is the kid's decision to gamble on it, not the teacher's. If you honestly think this is bullying then I really don't know what to say, but rules are rules and it was 100% the kid's decision -- Hell, the kid could go to the prof afterwards, say he was really sorry etc and just explain to him that he was panicking or something like that and work out something with the prof. Honestly, I really don't like your view of the world where you are allowed to break rules just because YOU find them arbitrary and not get punished for it (and of course, if you're punished it's just "bullying"). Tough shit. Yep every decision against me is bullying, ofcourse it is, I am a perfect human being and no rules apply to me. I wake up every single day thinking "Oh what a great day to be me, because I'm so fucking awesome". Only to realise later that the world is keeping me down with their silly rules, fight the machine! In secret I oppose everything and everyone, I am true anarchy.
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Souma,
There is another option:
Quietly accept that the world is very stupid sometimes. That people can behave in illogical and harmful ways.
If you feel so inclined, make a value judgment,
Mine would be, "this professor is a bad professor."
Move on.
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I would also like to add that stupid and arbitrary rules can be used by anyone. I read my college "rule book" cover to cover twice. I was told I couldn't do a lot of things in college. I waved their "rule book" back at them and did them anyway. The rules changed the following year.
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The point of a test is to see if you understand the material well enough. The student apparently didn't as he couldn't complete the exam in the time provided (assuming the test was relatively fair). If the professor explained the rules, then the student is really the only person at fault. I'm glad most of my professors would probably only take off points though. Sucks for a midterm 
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On March 05 2011 09:58 SpicyCrab wrote:
Souma,
There is another option:
Quietly accept that the world is very stupid sometimes. That people can behave in illogical and harmful ways.
If you feel so inclined, make a value judgment,
Mine would be, "this professor is a bad professor."
Move on.
I am not exactly sure why this is directed at me...
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I was just talking about this exact situation with a friend the other day. I have no problem with a rule like this, I just think the rule is overly punitive with the way many classes are graded*. Why not instead reduce the student's score by 20%, enough for it to be guaranteed punishment, but not enough to ruin someone's grade for the entire class for one (in the grand scheme of things small) lapse in judgement. Even 30, 40, or 50% would be bigger, more reasonable, but still a large punishment.
I had a guy sitting next to me in high school ask me for an eraser during an exam and the teacher assumed he was cheating and instantly ripped up the test without figuring out the situation.
*In high school most of my classes were 90+ some for of A, 80-89 some form of B, etc. which makes getting a 0 on a large part of your grade irrecoverable no matter how well you do on everything else. In college, classes were actually impossibly hard sometimes where 60% was a very good score, getting 0 obviously would still be devastating, but it wasn't actually impossible to recover from such a result.
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EPT
