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Long time ago i made this blogentry: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=133833
Called: We work too much
Today i will post something that basically just confirms my theory and philosofies. What i have just read is this: + Show Spoiler + What’s Wrong with a 30-Hour Work Week? May 31, 2009
There is something problematic with advocating a 30-hour work week at the beginning of the 21st century: a 30 hour week is not short enough!
by Don Fitz
With millions of jobs lost during the first part of 2009, who is calling for a shorter work week to spread the work around? Not the Republicans. Not even the Democrats. But why is there nary a peep from unions?
In the US, auto sets the pace for organized labor. The only discussion at the top levels of the UAW (United Auto Workers) is how quickly the gains won during the last 50 years can be given back. Does the UAW have no memory of the 1930s and 40s when a shorter work week was at center of organizing demands?
The gross domestic product (GDP) is plummeting at the same time that jobs are disappearing. Why should there be any connection between the two? If society produces 10% less, why don’t we all just work 10% less? Didn’t things work like that for hundreds of thousands of years of human existence? When people figured out easier ways to get what they needed, they spent less time doing it.
It’s called “leisure.” Leisure is essential for a democratic society involving people in all aspects of self-government. Instead of working frenetically to produce “stuff” that we don’t have the time to enjoy, wouldn’t we be better off with less “stuff” and more time of our own? Research repeatedly shows that, once important needs are met, additional belongings bring no additional happiness. [1] Yet work is strongly related to stress. [2]
A labor-environment connection?
It’s more than stress to the human nervous system. Manufacturing too much stuff stresses every aspect of the environment. The voracious appetite of corporate growth destroys homes of the wolf and bear in North America. Swiftly disappearing are the last refuges of chimpanzees in Africa and orangutans in Borneo and Sumatra. Mangrove forests give way to beach resorts as long line fishing kills 100 sea animals for every fish eaten by a human.
Vastly more creatures fall prey to the 80-100,000 chemicals spewed into the air, water and land. Countless molecules of chlorine and fluorine go into pesticides and plastics that destroy immune and reproductive systems. Elemental structures of lead, mercury and, of course, radioactive particles are Thanatos to living systems.
The most frequent building block of toxins is oil. With more than 40 hours of labor contained in each gallon, oil is the closest thing to free energy that humanity has ever discovered. [3] A substance that should be used sparingly so that many future generations could use if for medical and other essential products, oil is being squandered at an exponential rate by a corporate culture determined that its descendants will despise it.
The only way that corporate America knows to shield itself from loathing by its progeny is working overtime to prevent those generations from existing. As climate change changes from “if/when” to “How rapidly is it increasing?” corporations befuddle our senses with a dazzling array of green gadgets, each of which pumps more CO2 into the atmosphere during its manufacture and distribution.
Nevertheless, corporate media propagandizes non-stop that we must be unhappy from the economic downturn and pray for a quick return to the normal rate of planetary extermination. So it’s time to ask why another set of voices is not demanding a shorter work week: Why do the Nature Conservancy, World Wildlife Federation and a host of other Washington lobby groups fail to point out that an economic slowdown with a fair distribution of jobs would be the treatment of choice for a sick environment?
Centuries of struggle for the working day
Some of the most insightful writing on hours of labor is in Karl Marx’s Capital. While most of it reflects the analytical style of 19th century economic writing, Chapter X on “The Working-Day” reveals Marx’s passionate outrage at what long hours do to workers’ health. The problem started as infant capitalism found the hours of labor under feudalism to be insufficient to satisfy its urges for expansion.
In response to a shortage of labor due to the plague, England’s 1349 “Statute of Laborers” sought to ensure that the working day was sufficiently long. An Elizabethan statute of 1562 lengthened the working day by reducing the time for meals. Emphasizing that it took capitalism centuries to lengthen the working day to 12 hours, Marx noted that one of the milestones was the elimination of church holidays by Protestantism. [4]
By the nineteenth century, some had work weeks of 15 hours per day for 6 days per week plus 8-10 hours on Sunday. [5] At the same time that many were organizing to reduce their hours to 12 per day, the Chartist movement made the 10 hour day “their political, election cry.” [6, 7]
The high point of US labor organizing during the 19th century was on May 1, 1886 when 300,000 workers went on strike for the eight hour day. The brutal repression that came down in Chicago with the Haymarket arrests and executions sparked the international celebration of May Day. [8]
In his classic description of the fervor for an eight hour day that began in 1884 and increased in pitch through 1886, Jeremy Brecher made observations that are still relevant.
First, the leadership of the dominant labor organization of the day, the Knights of Labor, attempted to put brakes on the 8-hour movement. It was often the grassroots that pushed forward, dragging the leaders behind them in city after city.
Second, the 1886 strike wave, far more than previous labor actions, “became above all strikes for power.” [9] The 1886 demands were for control over work hours, hiring and firing, and the organization of work.
Third, and most important, the struggle for the 8-hour day did not wait until the 10-hour day had been won. Unbelievably long hours were still common. Successful strikes meant that, in many industries, workers “of all kinds have reduced their hours of labor from 15 to 12 and 10.” [10] Workers who only a few years earlier had 12-15 hour per day jobs were now demanding the 8-hour day. Marx similarly wrote that the Chartist movement for the 10 hour day was popular amongst those with a work week of up to 100 hours.
Does anyone work for less than 40 hours?
While interviewing Spanish longshoremen in 1989, I spent hours talking to Juan Madrid in Barcelona. Every summer he and his wife had the problem of making sure that they had the same month for vacation. “Do American workers really get off less than a month?” he asked me incredulously.
“Two weeks is the most common; some only get one week; and, many get no paid vacation at all,” I let him know. Factoring in longer vacations, he had an average work week considerably shorter than the typical US worker. This is the rule, and not the exception, in Europe.
Reducing the work week below 40 hours has preoccupied many labor organizations. In the 1930s, the American Federation of Labor lobbied for a 6-hour day. [11] In 1990 BMWs plant in Regensburg adopted a 36 hour week. German Volkswagen employees accepted a 10% pay cut to achieve a 28.8 hour work week. The Digital corporation had 530 employees who opted for a 4-day week with a 7% pay cut so that 90 jobs could be saved. [12]
Victories for shorter work weeks may only be temporary. Tim Kaminski told me that he loved the extra free time he gained from winning a 7-hour day (with no loss in pay) at the St. Louis Chrysler minivan plant in 1992. But the contract stipulated that it would last only until another plant reopened, which happened two years later. [13]
It is not unknown for politicians to champion the cause of fewer hours. Before joining the Supreme Court, as a US Senator Hugo Black introduced legislation for a 30 hour work week in 1933. [14] More recently, the French Senate looked into a 33-hour week. [15]
One of the least known flirtations with the 30-hour work week was by the cereal giant, W.K. Kellogg Company. In 1930, the company announced that most of its 1500 employees would go from an 8-hour to a 6-hour work day, which would provide 300 new jobs in Battle Creek. Though the shorter work week involved a pay cut, the overwhelming majority of workers preferred having increased leisure time to spend with their families and community. [16]
New managers who began running Kellogg had no enthusiasm for the shorter work day. They polled workers in 1946 and found that 77% of men and 87% of women would choose a 30-hour week even if it meant lower wages. Disappointed, management began examining which work groups liked money more than leisure and began offering the 40-hour week on a department-by-department basis.
How long did it take them to get rid of the 30-hour week? Almost 40 years! The desire to have more time to themselves was so strong that it was not until 1985 that Kellogg was able to eliminate the 30-hour work week in the last department.
The experience at Kellogg indicates that it is absolutely false to say that all workers all of the time crave more stuff and will sacrifice anything to get it. Karl Marx made a similar observation when writing about “The Working-Day.” Quoting results of a poll of those who had labored excruciating hours at a Lancashire factory, “They would much prefer working 10 hours for less wages…” [17]
Why would any progressive criticize a 30 hour work week?
Despite all of this, there is something problematic with advocating a 30-hour work week at the beginning of the 21st century: a 30 hour week is not short enough! There is mushrooming unemployment amidst mountains of useless products. An hour of labor now produces more goods than has ever been the case in the history of humanity. Combining these means that there is no reason for anyone to work more than 20 hours per week.
Every year, clever folks figure out how to churn out more stuff with fewer hours of labor. Jeffrey Kaplan observed that “By 1991, the amount for goods and services produced for each hour of labor was double what it had been in 1948.” [18] This was a doubling of labor productivity in only 43 years. Jon Bekken calculates a more rapid rate: “Automation and other innovations result in our productivity (output per work hour) doubling every 25 years or so.” [19]
In other words, the amount that people produce during an hour of labor doubles every 33 years [give or take 10 years]. We have the ability to produce twice as much during the work day or cut the work day in half and produce the same amount.
Arthur Dahlberg, a consultant to both the Hoover and Roosevelt administrations, wrote that capitalism was already capable of satisfying basic human needs with a 4-hour work day. [20] He maintained that such a drastic cut in working hours “was necessary to prevent society from becoming disastrously materialistic.” [21]
The issue was revisited in 1991 by Harvard economist Juliet Schor, who concluded that it would be possible to have a 4-hour work day with no decline in the standard of living. [22] Similarly, J.W. Smith argued that “over 50% of our industrial capacity has nothing to do with producing for consumer needs.” [23] Years before issues of climate change and peak oil grabbed the public, Smith forecast:
We’re facing an ecological nightmare as we push to the brink the earth’s ability to support us. We could eliminate much industrial pollution and conserve our precious, dwindling resources by eliminating the 50% of industry that is producing nothing useful for society. [24]
In a more recent analysis, Smith sifts through the US economy sector by sector to conclude that “we could all work 2.3 days per week with no drop in our living standard.” [25]
It’s a rare economist who is capable of realizing that there is no reason to constantly scramble for the possession of more objects that fall apart more rapidly. British philosopher Bertrand Russell also thought that four hours of work per day should be plenty to supply the necessities of life. [26]
Russell was thinking similarly to Benjamin Franklin, who wrote over 200 years ago:
…if every Man and Woman would work for four Hours each Day on something useful, that Labour would produce sufficient to procure all the Necessities and Comforts of Life, Want and Misery would be banished out of the World, and the rest of the 24 hours might be Leisure and Pleasure. [27]
Labor has become vastly more productive since Ben Franklin contemplated the work day. However, total output grows even faster than labor productivity. By including population growth and people seeking to live the lifestyle of the English-speaking rich, Ted Trainer ciphers that “by 2070 given 3% economic growth, total world economic output every year would then be 60 times as great as it is now [28].
This would be a 6000% increase in stuff in 63 years – not exactly healthy for forests, oceans, wildlife and humans. If we want our children to be able to live on this planet, the single most important environmental legislation may be restricting people from working more than 20 hours per week.
What’s stopping a shorter work week?
One factor which is not standing in the way of fewer work hours is “human nature.” Marshall Sahlins estimated that hunter and gatherer societies probably spent 15-20 hours per week obtaining the necessities to survive. [29] Each of us can look inside of ourselves to see the real obstacles to cutting the work week in half: fear that we will lose medical care, pensions, and related survival necessities.
Virtually every working family in American is one medical catastrophe away from bankruptcy. Countless Americans would gleefully shift to a 20-hour work week if it would not cause them to lose their health insurance.
Pensions pose a similar roadblock. As they approach retirement, millions of Americans become acutely aware that pensions are based on factors like the average salary of the last three years. Working part time would cut pension payments during uncertain years.
It is not a well kept secret that employers often give workers less than 40 hours to deny them benefits. A similar effect occurs from forced overtime. Even though there may be a higher rate of pay for overtime, a company may save money if it does not pay for the health care and pensions that putting more people on the payroll would require.
Every environmentalist who wants to stop coal companies from blowing the top off of sacred mountains should be on those mountains screaming that private health insurance and pension plans must be replaced by single payer health care and a social security system with at least a four-fold expansion of payments. In case the environmental significance is not clear…
1. Halting the cancerous growth of useless fall-apart junk production requires a drastic shortening of the work week; and, 2. Cutting the work week can only happen if people are not terrified that fewer hours means they will lose health insurance and pension plans.
These are called “social wages.” Social wages also include mass transportation, clean water, breathable air, uncontaminated land and something which is becoming increasingly rare: the right to quality free public education which is coordinated by representatives directly elected by citizens. These social wages are as important environmentally as medical care and pensions.
The right to a home with electricity and heat is part of the same pattern. People who are not fearful of being thrown out of their home or losing their utilities have much less incentive to work long hours.
There remains an enormous problem that permeates every other barrier to shortening the working day. As long as production is based on the maximization of profit, each corporation is pushed to extend working hours as long as possible for fear the competition will do it first. As Marx described with Lugosian clarity:
The prolongation of the working-day, beyond the limits of the natural day, into the night, … quenches only in a slight degree the vampire thirst for the living blood of labour. To appropriate labour during all 24 hours of the day is, therefore, the inherent tendency of capitalist production. [30]
In the 21st century, we should update this to say that capital feeds with two fangs: one to suck the blood of labor and the other fang to drain life from Mother Earth. Can the 20 hour work week become a wooden stake held by the environmental movement as it is pounded by labor? Maybe; but not necessarily. A stake that is driven too shallow will allow the demon to awaken with renewed strength.
When US workers struck for the eight hour day in 1886, they were going beyond pay issues and demanding that labor have a role in controlling the process of production. Today, we need a progressive alliance to challenge not only how many hours we work, but the quality, durability and even the necessity of goods we produce. Drastically cutting the hours we work will help save the Earth’s ecology only if it is part of an overarching goal to improve the quality of our lives while reducing the grand mass of manufactured objects.
be adviced the spoiler contains WALL OF TEXT
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=691&cpage=1#comment-12128
Its a very interesting read. So what do you think? Think, act, discuss! :D
A note about the author: + Show Spoiler +Don Fitz has been surviving on less than 20 hours work per week since he was forced to retire in 2006.
   
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It should be a basic human right to not work more than 8 hours. It should be a right of the earth.
yemen,
it should also be a basic human right to have a girlfriend rated 8+ and above. Having a gf lower than this rating is just too cruel.
User was warned for this post
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yemen - is that like the religous amen?
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While most of the economy may be tied up producing "trivial" goods, these good make the people who are actually working on important developments happier and more productive. Healthcare developments, energy sources, telecommunications innovations, etc all produce tangible products that directly enhance the standard of living for people. If we consider that all of human work is devoted to:
A) maintaining the current standard of living B) improving the standard of living
Then these jobs reside at the top of a pyramid on an economic importance scale. Below them, every other job in some way or another props them up (ie movies make them happier & more productive, waiters as well, etc). I do not believe that human labor goes to waste if it produces tangible goods that are used by others. Just because the work does not directly contribute doesn't mean that it doesn't indirectly contribute.
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If you want to know what real work is read Mighty_Atom's posts. 8 hours a day is a relaxing holiday for him :O
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a real work day is 3-4 hours? Who decides what a real work day is? Mighty_Atom may be clever and intelligent and all that but he certainly doesnt decide what a real work day is...
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I don't really get this...If you want to work less then work less, if you want to work more work more....
what is the issue here?
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On January 27 2011 08:09 sob3k wrote: I don't really get this...If you want to work less then work less, if you want to work more work more....
what is the issue here?
You sign a contract with the employer. In it, it says you work 38 hours per week. You work more then that you get overtime payment you work less than that you can risc getting fired and you dont have a case in courtroom, cause you violated the contract that you signed.
So why does the contract says 38 hours in the first place? Because labour unions agreed on that. So its not something that can be decided on an individual scale.
Dont like the contract, refuse to sign? They find another who'll gladly want to sign the contract.
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I sort of agree that a shorter work day might be in oder, but mostly because my experiences with work that isnt strictly physical tells me that most people put in 4 5 hours of quality work anyways and spend the rest of the day either slacking off in any manner they can or just doing a sloppy job, so I kind of feel that a shorter but more work intensive day might be better, but thats just what I experienced at the several jobs I worked so far, and ive worked in offices, and also had 10 hours a day construction jobs.
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There are actually a number of technical problems if you think about it:
if you force people to work 30 hours a week. What would happen to employers that only require 45h/week of man power?
they'd have to hire 2 ppl for 30h/w each instead of 1 working over time. resulting in 15h/w wasted. And if you don't pay the 15h/w lets say, it may not be enough for that person to buy the necessasities of life. lets say you have a convenient store: 15h/w * 12 dollars an hour = 720 dollars a month. Not really a living wage.
Ok, so lets say we only apply this to large companies, even in this case there are a number of problems to be considered. Let's say instead of having 1 person work 40h/w we have 2 ppl working 20h/w, it would mean doubling the transportation costs (instead of 2 trips from home to work every day, u have 2 people making 4 trips) and also implicitly increasing pollution.
This is also not to mention if one were to 'spread the work around' it means lowering the salary of the people who's work is being spread. If I'm an engineer who makes $70000/y and I'm forced to spread to another person, it means lowering my salary to $35,000. Why would anyone agree to this kind of deal? What if they have a mortage and kids to take care of? etc etc
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On January 27 2011 08:14 exeexe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 08:09 sob3k wrote: I don't really get this...If you want to work less then work less, if you want to work more work more....
what is the issue here?
You sign a contract with the employer. In it, it says you work 38 hours per week. You work more then that you get overtime payment you work less than that you can risc getting fired and you dont have a case in courtroom, cause you violated the contract that you signed. So why does the contract says 38 hours in the first place? Because labour unions agreed on that. So its not something that can be decided on an individual scale. Dont like the contract, refuse to sign? They find another who'll gladly want to sign the contract.
Capitalism's a bitch alright. Welcome to life.
If you don't want to live under this prescription, you have to pick a career that doesn't follow this. Start your own business, become a dentist, optometrist, ect. I'm sure there are more jobs where you can pretty much work your own hours, do what you want to. The only reason most people don't is because these paths are much to "hard" for the "average" person- sucks for them I guess (yeah it will probably suck for me too, but again, that's life).
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Capitalism's a bitch alright. Welcome to life.
I'd make one correction:
Life's a bitch alright. Welcome to life.
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On January 27 2011 08:14 exeexe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 08:09 sob3k wrote: I don't really get this...If you want to work less then work less, if you want to work more work more....
what is the issue here?
You sign a contract with the employer. In it, it says you work 38 hours per week. You work more then that you get overtime payment you work less than that you can risc getting fired and you dont have a case in courtroom, cause you violated the contract that you signed. So why does the contract says 38 hours in the first place? Because labour unions agreed on that. So its not something that can be decided on an individual scale. Dont like the contract, refuse to sign? They find another who'll gladly want to sign the contract.
I wouldn't sign that contract. I have never worked 38 hours a week in my life and I'm fine.
And how would a smaller workweek be achieved? What if someone wants to work 50 hours a week? Is that Illegal?
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On January 27 2011 08:36 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 08:14 exeexe wrote:On January 27 2011 08:09 sob3k wrote: I don't really get this...If you want to work less then work less, if you want to work more work more....
what is the issue here?
You sign a contract with the employer. In it, it says you work 38 hours per week. You work more then that you get overtime payment you work less than that you can risc getting fired and you dont have a case in courtroom, cause you violated the contract that you signed. So why does the contract says 38 hours in the first place? Because labour unions agreed on that. So its not something that can be decided on an individual scale. Dont like the contract, refuse to sign? They find another who'll gladly want to sign the contract. Capitalism's a bitch alright. Welcome to life. If you don't want to live under this prescription, you have to pick a career that doesn't follow this. Start your own business, become a dentist, optometrist, ect. I'm sure there are more jobs where you can pretty much work your own hours, do what you want to. The only reason most people don't is because these paths are much to "hard" for the "average" person- sucks for them I guess (yeah it will probably suck for me too, but again, that's life).
lol with that attitude we would still be working 12 hours per day -.-
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One thing stood out to me:
Don Fitz has been surviving on less than 20 hours work per week since he was forced to retire in 2006.
So he had been working more, but had to be "forced to retire". Combined with the general tone of the piece, it sounds like he might still be a little bitter.
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What about the people out there that like to work and want to work more hours? I personally LOVE money, and I choose to work 12hours a day (sometimes 7days a week) in order to get alot of it. I would never ever want to work such few hours and come home with a huge dip in my pay. I would rather work hard during my younger years, and make tons of money so that everything of mine is paid off and done with by the time im 30-35. After that its just smooth sailing.
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I agree. I wish the work week could be shortened to 4 days. What's the point of working your entire life away then dying??
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On January 27 2011 09:08 eXigent. wrote: What about the people out there that like to work and want to work more hours? I personally LOVE money, and I choose to work 12hours a day (sometimes 7days a week) in order to get alot of it. I would never ever want to work such few hours and come home with a huge dip in my pay. I would rather work hard during my younger years, and make tons of money so that everything of mine is paid off and done with by the time im 30-35. After that its just smooth sailing.
This is possible in many lines of work due to overtime. You are probably that person that grabs all the overtime in your department. All departments need those people and still would. What is to stop you from getting 2 or even 3 jobs if the average is a 4 hour day?
The opposite of only working 3 days a week (since you make enough money from that for your personal needs) isn't a possibility in many lines of work due to strict work hours. I know I could easily live on 60% of my current income. I could probably live on 50% of it. This would make me less tired since I have less hours spent on work, it would also mean I have more hours of free time. I would jump on a deal like that without blinking.
I would be happy living without a car, without going out to the movies more than twice a year, without travelling anywhere expensive and so on. Then those that want those things grab two or even three positions and are loved by the employer.
Edit
The funny thing is that if you look at many of the industry companies their output/employee just keeps increasing. If we don't need more of that product, why does the hours stay the same, the salary increase just a tad over the gdp growth and vacations not get much longer?
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On January 27 2011 09:21 GreatFall wrote: I agree. I wish the work week could be shortened to 4 days. What's the point of working your entire life away then dying?? I agree. Why not just off yourself right now? What's the point to living anyways?
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On January 27 2011 07:52 exeexe wrote: Don Fitz has been surviving on less than 20 hours work per week since he was forced to retire in 2006. Is that really a good life? A long time ago I decided I wouldn't become just some destitute that does nothing with their life and tries to just get by.
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On January 27 2011 09:40 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:21 GreatFall wrote: I agree. I wish the work week could be shortened to 4 days. What's the point of working your entire life away then dying?? I agree. Why not just off yourself right now? What's the point to living anyways?
Oh, gimme a break.
Strawman much?
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I really feel like the work week is way too short. People can't really accomplish much in 8 hours and then you also have to support multiple time zones. I think the ideal would be about 10 hours a day. People would have a lot less stress because they would be finished with all their tasks and they wouldn't have to worry about it when they got home.
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This would just make the poor people poorer. People at my dad's work have a tough time getting by on 40 hours a week so they have to work overtime every chance they get. 20 hours a week is great if you get good pay. Try supporting a family when you're only working 20 hours a week getting paid minimum wage.
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anyone that still measures work by hours and is paid "over time" is typically not in the higher tiers of earners. You can make a fine living working less than 40 hours but your career path will be much shorter than a person who puts in the time and works beyond the 40 hours.
as you move up in the corporate ladder or career path of your choice, the hours get longer and longer. until you hit a point where your hours decrease and your pay sky rockets. are you willing to put in the work and make the sacrifice?
no? ..thats why you still work an hourly job..
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On January 27 2011 09:43 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:40 Roe wrote:On January 27 2011 09:21 GreatFall wrote: I agree. I wish the work week could be shortened to 4 days. What's the point of working your entire life away then dying?? I agree. Why not just off yourself right now? What's the point to living anyways? Oh, gimme a break. Strawman much?
I sort of agree with this. I'm not sure if you the person you quoted is being sarcastic or not but I've always said if i spend more time working per week then I do just living and enjoying myself I might as well kill myself, and I actually enjoy my job for the most part. Strangely enough I actually wish my job would schedule me more hours at the moment.
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On January 27 2011 08:02 Kalingingsong wrote:Show nested quote +It should be a basic human right to not work more than 8 hours. It should be a right of the earth. yemen, it should also be a basic human right to have a girlfriend rated 8+ and above. Having a gf lower than this rating is just too cruel. User was warned for this post Yemen has a drug problem, which results in a labor problem.anyway...
A work week of 40 hours is perfectly fine for some, and for some 40 hours is way too much. Sometimes longer hours are needed and sometimes they are consuming your life with no gain.
I work 24 days straight, 4 off, 12 hour days as a construction electrician. I make a lot of money because of the hours I work. This type of shift is very common in my field, and the alternative is usually 10 days straight, four off. There are at least 4000 red sealed j-men in my province's union alone, and they all agree with 50 hour work week as a minimum.
So.. are construction electrician (along with thousands of other tradesmen in other fields ei welding, pipe fitting, etc) are unanimously greedy? No. In construction, it is very necessary for a minimum 10 hour day, because our work takes time to set up, organize, sign in, and gear up, then clean up - every day. If you worked 8 hour days, you would get 5.5 hrs of production - 2hrs of setting up (material, gearing up, safety, etc etc) and coffee breaks, and one 30 minute lunch.
Another thing to look at is that lots of people in trades don't have secondary education - some don't even have high school diplomas. These people are very valuable to society, but can not make very much money because of lack of education. In the trades, you make a slightly above or average wage - but you almost always work 10+ hour days. This is a fantastic opportunity for most uneducated people to 'get ahead of the game', and breathe easier, as we all should.
Shorter work weeks sounds glorious but I will have so much more time to spend money I don't have though. When I am middle-aged Sundays will become hell if I have Friday off too. That may not make sense to you, but just think about how much extra time you have, and how less money you will be making. Esp . in these times, short work weeks would be a major failure because of so many people looking for work, willing to give into 60 hour work weeks so they can feed their family.
One last major concern is how income tax will be affected. Obviously in a huge population like America, tax revenue would be a significant amount less for the government (haha, ya that is nice but in reality, governments need money). So, a simple change like 30 hours from 40 hours, you would see an enormous decrease in income for American government (not only the people), which would probably just result in a spike of taxes for the good American people. Last time I checked, Americans fuckin hate taxes... You know, this is kinda funny. I didn't really think about it, but shortening a work week is a brilliant political strategy that could be used as a weapon by the 'opposition' party. The idea sounds so inviting that the common people would vote for it, without thinking of consequence.. The gov't in power would have to fight pretty hard to convince opposing bureaucrats and the voters less hours is problematic (because people are stupid). Of course, if the bill were to be passed, it would fail very shortly and I couldn't see them being re-elected after another economic downfall.
In conclusion, short work weeks work in a Utopia; you can apply this system to the current one as well as you can push a square block through a circle hole.
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On January 27 2011 09:40 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:21 GreatFall wrote: I agree. I wish the work week could be shortened to 4 days. What's the point of working your entire life away then dying?? I agree. Why not just off yourself right now? What's the point to living anyways?
Trolling much? If you live to work then I feel sorry for you.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
Some of the most insightful writing on hours of labor is in Karl Marx’s Capital... Oh dear. Would have been better off citing Wikipedia.
eliminating the 50% of industry that is producing nothing useful for society.
If we want our children to be able to live on this planet, the single most important environmental legislation may be restricting people from working more than 20 hours per week. Hi Paul Ehrlich.
private health insurance and pension plans must be replaced by single payer health care and a social security system with at least a four-fold expansion of payments. In case the environmental significance is not clear… Screams "I'm incapable of doing basic math"...less productivity, more expenses.
Somehow I suspect the author doesn't understand the broken windows fallacy...
the right to quality free public education which is coordinated by representatives directly elected by citizens. Why not throw in a right to a free car too?
Arthur Dahlberg, a consultant to both the Hoover and Roosevelt administrations, wrote that capitalism was already capable of satisfying basic human needs with a 4-hour work day. [20] He maintained that such a drastic cut in working hours “was necessary to prevent society from becoming disastrously materialistic.” 80 years of disastrous materialism, and America is still doing alright.
Being a consultant during the Hoover and especially the Roosevelt years probably isn't the best credentials to be throwing around. The New Deal was more of an economic abortion than the current Stimulus.
who concluded that it would be possible to have a 4-hour work day with no decline in the standard of living. This I can agree with, just look at Kim Kardashian.
If I recall, there's an elegant turn of phrase that encapsulates his argument: "Under capitalism, man exploits man, under communism, its the other way around."
PS It would be delicious irony if this guy was surviving on my tax dollars. But I wouldn't be surprised.
PPS A bucket load of citations does not a strong argument make.
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If noone worked more than 8 hours a day there wouldn't be any startups, no new enterprises and as such no new jobs.
Lower work shifts = more people working but the productivity is the same = more expenses = more taxes = more obstacles for new enterprises = less jobs.
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On January 27 2011 11:14 GreatFall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:40 Roe wrote:On January 27 2011 09:21 GreatFall wrote: I agree. I wish the work week could be shortened to 4 days. What's the point of working your entire life away then dying?? I agree. Why not just off yourself right now? What's the point to living anyways? Trolling much? If you live to work then I feel sorry for you. your definition of work is different than mine. Let me clarify to soothe your troll-dar. Work is anything productive. Be it aspiring to hone your writing skills, exercising your muscles to improve your health, practicing piano, going to work and leading a meeting to advance the company's finances, or digging at the coal mine down the creek, I, conversely don't want to live to consume more than I produce. It's probably not something everyone can or should do, as in nature there are producers and consumers and each do their part well, and are needed by the other. You might find your job is an unsatisfying one, and with that I sympathize and understand where your recalcitrance is coming from. Though, what will you do with the time you don't "work"?--whichever way you define it. That is, I suppose the core of this argument.
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Work smart not hard... Follow this and profit - for real, people who grind out a dead end job with no dream for nothing more will continue to grind out a dead end job with no future.
Always strive for more, whether you work 20 hours or 70. Do something you love and the hours you work won't really matter since you're doing something you enjoy.
I started my own business even though I work a full time job. I hope to soon transition part time at my current full time job and really push my own business. I work 60-80 hours a week when you add the two together. I don't have a lot of time for other things anymore such as gaming/poker/drinking but I really can say I enjoy where I am heading.
I put in smart hours now so I can retire earlier than my peers.
Whether this means I have a heart attack at the age of 70 instead of 80 doesn't really mean shit to me. I promise you the moment in my elder years I shit my own pants I'm taking about 30 ambien's and falling asleep. Who would want to live that life?
You can live 30 years in the fast lane and experience amazing things or you can live 90 years in the slow lane staying home and grinding.
Either way it's your life and enjoy it while it lasts. Not saying one is better than the other but I would rather live fast and die early than live slow and die later.
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I remember reading your last bog entry on this subject. I don't know if I agree with you about the work issue. Sometimes these days I like coming home completely exhausted. It makes me feel good about myself.
Either way, changing how well one nation/company works will make it less competitive against other nations/companies. You may not mind working less, but your nation/company certainly will. try to find a nation/company/job that has lax work standards if you are not satisfied with your current conditions. That's the best you can do.
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