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STARCRAFT 2 (just to be clear)
Now i am a zerg player, and at this moment i am quite rusty overall, though i used to be pretty good.  not playing for a month hurts. anyway i've been watching tournaments + replays like mad and decided if protoss tried to play a bit more like zerg they could be pretty good. now obviously protoss cannot just spam units early game to hold off any threat like zerg can, and so i used some of my old data on protoss (their production and income rates over time) and transfered it into use. the exact timings of the buildings and such are still QUITE rough, but as i've been toying with it i've noticed that at all the typical times that threats occur, you seemingly have or could have enough to hold off that threat. the hardest being 4 gate (though still possible, by cutting 3 probes (theoretically, haven;t played good players on my practice account yet since i try a bunch of stuff with all races on it).
Pretty much you get 1 gate while chrono-ing probes.
When the cyber goes up start chrono-ing stalkers, and put a forge up.
Around the time an attack comes that you can scout, you can put a cannon up and hold most rushes,
if you don't scout that rush the cannon turns into a nexus instead,
and then either a gate (vs 3 gateways spotted, 3 rax spotted, roach warren) or a cannon (under 3 gates, under 3 rax, or weird zergy thing). i get second gas around here, though the timing may not be optimal
a few cannons plus 2 gates chronoing stalkers is enough to hold off the 4 gate in theory with some cut probes for another cannon or two, and in practice vs bads (again REAL testing needs to be done, since i'm pretty bad as protoss and cannot compete with masters level other races like i can w/ zerg)
meanwhile since you have your expansion you can expand to 4-5 gates comfortably,
keep probing up and are prepped to tech as needed.
the cannons make you pretty safe against banshees (scout fastport = a couple extra cannon), DT rushes, unit rushes in general, and mutas as the game progresses.
Best part of this build is it flows easily into a third and fourth base if you are just scouting consistantly (i like obs + obs speed, since it works doubly as mind games thinking that you are 2 base colo-ing, and gets you warp prism speed for some zealot harrass)
flows easily into upgrades, since the forge is just there, you can start upgrading pretty quickly.
again not a protoss player, but just from timings observed in upper level games and alot of thought and theorycrafting i came up with this kind-of build. really it's just an attempt at a versatile protectable all-things-covered FE build. In practice (again vs bads) i transition to a third base pretty quickly, and actually can keep up and outpace zerg macro (this i judged against my own zerg not my opponents)
i ended up with about 16 gates on 3 bases able to warp in entire armies at a time while scouting everything, dropping and harrassing and using dt + obs combo to snipe tumors.
I hope someone (a toss) can take this build from me and make it better since i am not a protoss player nor do i plan to be. just a student of the game. 
Thanks for reading this guys!
EDIT: by request: Expo between 19-23 depending on forge timing, cannon either when forge finishes (19 expo) or when pylon on low ground finishes (23 expo), or when an all-iny rush scouted (variable food count)
pretty much i've made the forge anywhere from right as the cyber core starts, to when it finishes and to right after the nexus starts, depending on positioning, scouting, and fear of terran
TL;DR:
1 gate stalker, forge
Expo
cannon/2nd gate
more cannon or stalkers
?????
profit.
 
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In PvP if you forge FE the other toss can tech straight to collosi with range and rape your cannons and dominate your army.
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A game time or food approximation would be a good addition to the timing of the expo/cannon.
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I really, really miss FE in Starcraft 2 it's one of the main reasons I don't play much anymore . I have a tough time calling this a "fast expand" build, because it's really a one gate tech then expanding, but it's much much faster than a usual expansion I imagine (not sure how it would compare to 5sentry expand). I have a problem with having to get a gateway, then a forge, then expanding. It seems kinda slow, ideally there would be a way to skip either the forge or the gateway. Obviously, things will vary a lot depending on the map though, but because of super wide open chokes FE is really hard in SC2 from experience.
I wish I had more time to mess around with builds and such. An idea that I had, similar to an FE build in BW would be to expand ~12, the place a gateway immediately, followed closely by another one. Cut a few probes for gas, cycore, and chrono out ~5 zealots. Use those zealots to pressure and stall until you can get up warp gates. What worried me most about FE'ing was the 7rr, and 4gate, it's really hard to have enough to stop these.
Anyways, I might try this out/look into it. :D
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On January 21 2011 12:32 zoOv wrote:
In PvP if you forge FE the other toss can tech straight to collosi with range and rape your cannons and dominate your army.
if they tech straight to colo then you have ample time to tech to blink off of 6-7 gates(assuming 2 base colo and not just 1 base colo, which i don't THINK is very good PvP), which can be great for picking off collosus, alternately immortal, ect. especially in PvP if you get an expansion up this early they likely will either have to expand or all in since they wouldn't be able to keep up macro-wise.
On January 21 2011 12:35 emperorchampion wrote:
I have a problem with having to get a gateway, then a forge, then expanding. It seems kinda slow, ideally there would be a way to skip either the forge or the gateway. Obviously, things will vary a lot depending on the map though, but because of super wide open chokes FE is really hard in SC2 from experience.
because of the chronoboosted probes, one is actually ahead of a hatch first zerg income wise until right as your nexus starts, which means you only have the nexus's building time to be behind and as the nexus finishes your income can keep up with 2 hatch zerg as long as they aren't goign pure drone (IE send a couple stalkers + zealot to poke and retreat or some such). a big benefit to the faster nexus than other expansion oriented builds is the extra chronoboost, which can be used on units or probes to produce more off fewer structures, or to increase probe count rapidly to keep up in income.
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Are you sure this build can hold off a 4gate? 2 cannons + 2 gates doesn't sound like a very convincing win after he gets 2-3 rounds of units.
Also, how would you deal with 1 base collosus attack after range upgrade? 2 base probably won't work, simply because your expansion is so much faster, so how can you deal with 1 base? I don't think blink comes up that early, and if it does, you would probably have to sacrifice stalker count.
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On January 21 2011 13:33 mIniAtURe wrote:
Are you sure this build can hold off a 4gate? 2 cannons + 2 gates doesn't sound like a very convincing win after he gets 2-3 rounds of units.
Also, how would you deal with 1 base collosus attack after range upgrade? 2 base probably won't work, simply because your expansion is so much faster, so how can you deal with 1 base? I don't think blink comes up that early, and if it does, you would probably have to sacrifice stalker count.
you cut probes for a 3rd (or fourth if you feel like you need it) cannon. and chronoboosted stalkers ends you up with about the same amount as their first wave, and that + cannons allows you to hold it off. if you micro poorly, or try to engage wrong, you will lose though yeah. but in theory it's definitely do-able. though difficult. EDIT: also pulling probes would not be a horrible choice either, considering you can replenish them twice as fast. and remember you have close to the equivilent of 3 gates with your double chronoboosting, and 3 gate can hold off 4 gate, this is like 2.5 gate + cannon vs 4 gate, which is also doable.
and i haven't watched replays of 1 base colo nor seen any in tournaments, so i have no idea how 1 base colo would fare vs this at all. i'm a zerg player, so my PvP knowledge is based solely on viewing, and i haven't seen 1 base colo (or if i have i don't remember it or the timings)
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From what i've seen of Ranged, Response, and quiet a few other upper teir toss players, if you don't 4 gate, or 3 gate and have some good tech choice in mind, you will not win a pvp game unless your piqliq.
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PvP: not going to work, period.
PvT: you really don't need cannons that early to expand safely. 1 gate FE with chrono'ed gate can hold off almost anything (and for things it can't hold like some kind of 2/3 rax all-in with scvs on small maps, cannons aren't going to help that much because marauders will rape cannons). Getting an earlyish forge for upgrades though is an excellent idea, and getting a few cannons later on to hold off a marine/scv/raven/some other tech all in is good. You just don't need the forge/cannons THAT early.
PvZ: if your plan is to do some kind of poke with your inital zealot and 2 stalkers that have a few seconds of freedom before speedlings come out, then maybe this is a good idea. I can't really say because I personally don't have much experience with doing something like this. But if you just want to expand safely, either just go nexus/forge without the gate or go gate(s)/nexus (with sentries) without the fast forge. Chrono'ed stalkers and cannons just isn't as good as the above 2 builds because either you're more susceptible to speedlings and/or your expansion is just unnecessarily slower.
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On January 21 2011 13:45 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 13:33 mIniAtURe wrote:
Are you sure this build can hold off a 4gate? 2 cannons + 2 gates doesn't sound like a very convincing win after he gets 2-3 rounds of units.
Also, how would you deal with 1 base collosus attack after range upgrade? 2 base probably won't work, simply because your expansion is so much faster, so how can you deal with 1 base? I don't think blink comes up that early, and if it does, you would probably have to sacrifice stalker count. you cut probes for a 3rd (or fourth if you feel like you need it) cannon. and chronoboosted stalkers ends you up with about the same amount as their first wave, and that + cannons allows you to hold it off. if you micro poorly, or try to engage wrong, you will lose though yeah. but in theory it's definitely do-able. though difficult. EDIT: also pulling probes would not be a horrible choice either, considering you can replenish them twice as fast. and remember you have close to the equivilent of 3 gates with your double chronoboosting, and 3 gate can hold off 4 gate, this is like 2.5 gate + cannon vs 4 gate, which is also doable. and i haven't watched replays of 1 base colo nor seen any in tournaments, so i have no idea how 1 base colo would fare vs this at all. i'm a zerg player, so my PvP knowledge is based solely on viewing, and i haven't seen 1 base colo (or if i have i don't remember it or the timings)
I can't believe you wrote that much nonsense even after acknowledging the fact that you don't play PvP......
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On January 21 2011 15:48 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 13:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 21 2011 13:33 mIniAtURe wrote:
Are you sure this build can hold off a 4gate? 2 cannons + 2 gates doesn't sound like a very convincing win after he gets 2-3 rounds of units.
Also, how would you deal with 1 base collosus attack after range upgrade? 2 base probably won't work, simply because your expansion is so much faster, so how can you deal with 1 base? I don't think blink comes up that early, and if it does, you would probably have to sacrifice stalker count. you cut probes for a 3rd (or fourth if you feel like you need it) cannon. and chronoboosted stalkers ends you up with about the same amount as their first wave, and that + cannons allows you to hold it off. if you micro poorly, or try to engage wrong, you will lose though yeah. but in theory it's definitely do-able. though difficult. EDIT: also pulling probes would not be a horrible choice either, considering you can replenish them twice as fast. and remember you have close to the equivilent of 3 gates with your double chronoboosting, and 3 gate can hold off 4 gate, this is like 2.5 gate + cannon vs 4 gate, which is also doable. and i haven't watched replays of 1 base colo nor seen any in tournaments, so i have no idea how 1 base colo would fare vs this at all. i'm a zerg player, so my PvP knowledge is based solely on viewing, and i haven't seen 1 base colo (or if i have i don't remember it or the timings) I can't believe you wrote that much nonsense even after acknowledging the fact that you don't play PvP......
just because i don't PLAY PvP doesn't mean i don't know the common builds and results of the matchup nor does it mean i don't have the ability to learn how chrono works for protoss and econ. nor does it mean i don't have the ability to actually try it out.
EDIT: just because i don't play Professional Sc1 doesn't mean i don't know how to muta stack or how a build is susposed to work.
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WCS
