• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 03:26
CET 09:26
KST 17:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice4Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza1Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0258
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly) WardiTV Team League Season 10
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare
Brood War
General
It's March 3rd BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ CasterMuse Youtube Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues BWCL Season 64 Announcement The Casual Games of the Week Thread [LIVE] [S:21] ASL Season Open Day 1
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Diablo 2 thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
U4GM Tips for POE 2 Negative Rarity Breakpoints U4GM How to Build Big Killstreaks in Diablo 4 [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Just Watchers: Why Some Only…
TrAiDoS
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1964 users

Episode 1, in which we learn about countering

Blogs > KingOctavious
Post a Reply
KingOctavious
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States324 Posts
January 18 2011 18:15 GMT
#1
So, I just started this "Starcraft 2 n00b" thing, where I'm going to be analyzing my own replays and identifying what went wrong. I'm currently a bronze player, but I win probably 80% of my games, so I should be progressing to silver in the relatively near future, but I'm mostly going to be showcasing replays of just my losses. Along the way, I thought it'd be fun to chronicle my n00bness and pick apart my game to help me (and potentially other n00bs) improve.

The first episode, which can be watched here and here (in 2 parts) actually covers two games. The first is a TvT, and the second is a ZvP (I play random).

There's a common theme in both of these, and it's almost embarrassing it's so obvious: respond to your enemy's army with the proper counter units. In both of these, I made the mistake of starting off with an idea of what I wanted to do, then sticking with that idea regardless of what kind of forces the other guy threw at me. The second one is especially embarrassing, as I was playing against someone who couldn't even get his probes to do the things he wanted them to do a good portion of the time. But I lost because I kept idiotically pumping roaches against stalkers and immortals. Like I said, embarrassingly obvious.

So, lessons learned:

1. Be more conscious about producing units that counter those the other player is producing.

2. Keep scouting your opponent throughout the game.

3. Don’t be so stupid.





Check out my book, The Year in StarCraft II: 2011, http://yearinsc2.com/ :D:D
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
January 18 2011 18:42 GMT
#2
lessons you should have learned

1. counters dont exist, just build more stuff than him and you win even if his stuff "counters" yours
-this rule is broken by air, and DT
2. know what hes doing 100% of the time
3. dont be an idiot, prepare for the stupidest strats that you shouldnt lose to (such as your opponent MADE a cloak banshee or a DT)
4. in a mass roach vs stalker immortal, targetfire immortals first, they should be in front of the stalkers...if they arent then your opponent fails at army positioning and you should roll him anyway...
5. expand after even or won battle, unless you just won the game
Gecko
Profile Joined August 2010
United States519 Posts
January 18 2011 18:45 GMT
#3
Don't beat yourself up over a mistake, i joined a friendly tournament last night and got a PvT first round. I thought "awww yeah 1Gate Expo time" and proceeded to watch my natural get invaded by hellions, marauders, and SCVs 20 seconds after i began building it. He had basically prepared to all-in the second he suspected what i was doing. Next game i pick a big map intending to try it again, i scout 2rax before orbital and do it anyways. Yeah, i lost that one too.

Point is, Its O.K. to lose a friendly game or ladder game. You having nothing at stake but a meaningless ladder score and bragging rights. I don't care that i lost those games, because i now have some fresh ideas and i now know not to do something like a FE against a unpredictable player.
Don't call yourself stupid, because your smart enough to look at those games and tell yourself that you can do better. that is the best mindset to have.
BabyToss!
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Czech Republic588 Posts
January 18 2011 19:14 GMT
#4
It is always nice to see things like that and a fellow Bronze player trying to climb up the ladder. Even the fact you play random, kudos to you, sir. I've not met many random Bronze players. Good luck with your self-analysis... it's something I've started recently as well so feel free to check mine out as well! (Won't put link here to not hijack your thread, so if you want, check my public profile )
Nowadays a Filthy Casual | Follow your dreams |
KingOctavious
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States324 Posts
January 18 2011 19:27 GMT
#5
On January 19 2011 03:42 unit wrote:
lessons you should have learned

1. counters dont exist, just build more stuff than him and you win even if his stuff "counters" yours
-this rule is broken by air, and DT
2. know what hes doing 100% of the time
3. dont be an idiot, prepare for the stupidest strats that you shouldnt lose to (such as your opponent MADE a cloak banshee or a DT)
4. in a mass roach vs stalker immortal, targetfire immortals first, they should be in front of the stalkers...if they arent then your opponent fails at army positioning and you should roll him anyway...
5. expand after even or won battle, unless you just won the game


Thanks for the advice, but I did have more roaches than he had units, right? And still he slaughtered me. I know I'm a n00b, but isn't it still likely that counters are important?
Check out my book, The Year in StarCraft II: 2011, http://yearinsc2.com/ :D:D
KingOctavious
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States324 Posts
January 18 2011 19:31 GMT
#6
On January 19 2011 04:14 BabyToss! wrote:
It is always nice to see things like that and a fellow Bronze player trying to climb up the ladder. Even the fact you play random, kudos to you, sir. I've not met many random Bronze players. Good luck with your self-analysis... it's something I've started recently as well so feel free to check mine out as well! (Won't put link here to not hijack your thread, so if you want, check my public profile )



Oh, cool, Babytoss. I'll definitely be keeping up with your blog. We should play each other sometime. It'd be a cool sort of crossover.
Check out my book, The Year in StarCraft II: 2011, http://yearinsc2.com/ :D:D
KingOctavious
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States324 Posts
January 18 2011 19:35 GMT
#7
On January 19 2011 03:45 Gecko wrote:
Don't beat yourself up over a mistake, i joined a friendly tournament last night and got a PvT first round. I thought "awww yeah 1Gate Expo time" and proceeded to watch my natural get invaded by hellions, marauders, and SCVs 20 seconds after i began building it. He had basically prepared to all-in the second he suspected what i was doing. Next game i pick a big map intending to try it again, i scout 2rax before orbital and do it anyways. Yeah, i lost that one too.

Point is, Its O.K. to lose a friendly game or ladder game. You having nothing at stake but a meaningless ladder score and bragging rights. I don't care that i lost those games, because i now have some fresh ideas and i now know not to do something like a FE against a unpredictable player.
Don't call yourself stupid, because your smart enough to look at those games and tell yourself that you can do better. that is the best mindset to have.


Thanks, Gecko. I don't think I think I'm as stupid as it sounds like I think I am, though (if that makes any sense whatsoever). My "don't be stupid" remark was more in the spirit of playful self-deprecation, not me being all depressed and saying, in a Homer Simpson voice or something, "I'm just so stupid." So no need to feel sorry for me.

But thanks for the advice. I had a similar experience to the ones you describe this morning. I was P playing against a T and I saw that he had no wall-off and just one or two bunkers, I decided to get up four gates and zealot rush. Well, when I got there, he had an army of about six reapers and was able to totally micro me to death, with me hardly getting a hit in.

More lessons learned.
Check out my book, The Year in StarCraft II: 2011, http://yearinsc2.com/ :D:D
BabyToss!
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Czech Republic588 Posts
January 18 2011 19:38 GMT
#8
On January 19 2011 04:31 KingOctavious wrote:
Oh, cool, Babytoss. I'll definitely be keeping up with your blog. We should play each other sometime. It'd be a cool sort of crossover.

Well, I have no problem with it. My ID's are flying somewhere in my profile as well ^^
And the reason, why it's good to see a fellow Bronze writting and doing this stuff is, that a lot of people in the Bronze do not try to get better. They do whatever they deem necessary to win, even if it's some lame cheese, which grants them victory.

The thing is - nobody gets better by cheesing, so hopefully people like me and you will advance to higher leagues by actual improving, whilst these cheesers will get stuck at dead point. Yes, I'm mean like that to wish that on them, as there's nothing worse than seeing people who put no effort into game to win and get points.
Nowadays a Filthy Casual | Follow your dreams |
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 18 2011 19:47 GMT
#9
On January 19 2011 04:27 KingOctavious wrote:
Thanks for the advice, but I did have more roaches than he had units, right? And still he slaughtered me. I know I'm a n00b, but isn't it still likely that counters are important?

In resource value or in number? In terms of min/gas value, stalkers are worth almost twice as much as roaches and immortals are worth almost 4 times as much, so having more roaches than he has stalkers/immortals doesn't mean a whole lot.
Moderator
KingOctavious
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States324 Posts
January 18 2011 19:49 GMT
#10
On January 19 2011 04:38 BabyToss! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 04:31 KingOctavious wrote:
Oh, cool, Babytoss. I'll definitely be keeping up with your blog. We should play each other sometime. It'd be a cool sort of crossover.

Well, I have no problem with it. My ID's are flying somewhere in my profile as well ^^
And the reason, why it's good to see a fellow Bronze writting and doing this stuff is, that a lot of people in the Bronze do not try to get better. They do whatever they deem necessary to win, even if it's some lame cheese, which grants them victory.

The thing is - nobody gets better by cheesing, so hopefully people like me and you will advance to higher leagues by actual improving, whilst these cheesers will get stuck at dead point. Yes, I'm mean like that to wish that on them, as there's nothing worse than seeing people who put no effort into game to win and get points.


Hey man, I'm totally with you on that. I take my SC2 seriously, despite not having played for long, as it is just so rewarding to know when you've truly outwitted an opponent. I'm not against cheese, per se, but I am completely avoiding them for Bronze league play for the exact reason you stated. Cheese tactics don't help you get better. Right now, I just want to improve.

I'll try to find your Battle.net name and hit you up some time. My IDs should be around here somewhere, too.
Check out my book, The Year in StarCraft II: 2011, http://yearinsc2.com/ :D:D
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
January 18 2011 20:17 GMT
#11
On January 19 2011 04:27 KingOctavious wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 03:42 unit wrote:
lessons you should have learned

1. counters dont exist, just build more stuff than him and you win even if his stuff "counters" yours
-this rule is broken by air, and DT
2. know what hes doing 100% of the time
3. dont be an idiot, prepare for the stupidest strats that you shouldnt lose to (such as your opponent MADE a cloak banshee or a DT)
4. in a mass roach vs stalker immortal, targetfire immortals first, they should be in front of the stalkers...if they arent then your opponent fails at army positioning and you should roll him anyway...
5. expand after even or won battle, unless you just won the game


Thanks for the advice, but I did have more roaches than he had units, right? And still he slaughtered me. I know I'm a n00b, but isn't it still likely that counters are important?


im an idiot, i forgot #6 dont build 1 type of unit, zergling roach is a million times more powerful than roach, same with hydra roach or mutaling
Nyx
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Rwanda460 Posts
January 18 2011 20:51 GMT
#12
On January 19 2011 03:42 unit wrote:
lessons you should have learned

1. counters dont exist, just build more stuff than him and you win even if his stuff "counters" yours
-this rule is broken by air, and DT


Why do people even say this, is it loosely based on Day9s rant about unit counters?

His point was pretty reasonable, he just defined it far too definitively. Yes, you shouldn't suddenly make a huge change in army composition based on what information is discovered. But you should have contingency plans in place in your matchups.

For example in TvP I aim to know if my opponent is making colossus (and if so how quickly) or not by the time my starport finishes, so I can immediately begin viking production, delay it and get a few medivacs out or produce ONLY medivacs.

I think this is what he's talking about, being more aware of what your opponent is doing and reacting accordingly.
KingOctavious
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States324 Posts
January 18 2011 22:06 GMT
#13
On January 19 2011 04:47 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 04:27 KingOctavious wrote:
Thanks for the advice, but I did have more roaches than he had units, right? And still he slaughtered me. I know I'm a n00b, but isn't it still likely that counters are important?

In resource value or in number? In terms of min/gas value, stalkers are worth almost twice as much as roaches and immortals are worth almost 4 times as much, so having more roaches than he has stalkers/immortals doesn't mean a whole lot.


I still just don't believe that if I have, say, 100 more minerals-worth of roaches that I would be able to take down a slightly less mineral-invested army of stalkers.
Check out my book, The Year in StarCraft II: 2011, http://yearinsc2.com/ :D:D
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 34m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 190
ProTech119
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 41443
Calm 3449
Horang2 712
Hyuk 359
Tasteless 342
PianO 211
Shuttle 203
Sharp 142
Dewaltoss 83
Larva 72
[ Show more ]
Soma 59
Hm[arnc] 41
Backho 40
sSak 33
ToSsGirL 30
Free 23
910 15
GoRush 12
Sacsri 11
NaDa 10
JulyZerg 9
Dota 2
XaKoH 483
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1054
shoxiejesuss269
allub36
Other Games
summit1g7296
Liquid`RaSZi472
ceh9381
C9.Mang0252
Happy178
Livibee158
Mew2King39
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick691
Counter-Strike
PGL134
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 9
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 60
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt603
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
34m
Replay Cast
15h 34m
The PondCast
1d 1h
KCM Race Survival
1d 1h
WardiTV Winter Champion…
1d 3h
Replay Cast
1d 15h
Ultimate Battle
2 days
Light vs ZerO
WardiTV Winter Champion…
2 days
Classic vs Nicoract
herO vs YoungYakov
ByuN vs Gerald
Clem vs Krystianer
Replay Cast
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Winter Champion…
3 days
MaxPax vs Spirit
Bunny vs Rogue
Cure vs SHIN
Solar vs Zoun
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-03
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
WardiTV Winter 2026
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.