EPTI would disagree that ladder ratings mean nothing. Ladder ratings are quite important when discussing in the strategy section. We can't see people's MMR but by people's ladder ratings, we can expect that they are playing against people with similar ladder ratings. If someone says that they are 2000 point, their game is more based around strategy and tactics, while if someone says they are in platinum, their game is more based around not doing something fundamentally wrong. Also, certain strategies work better at certain ladder ratings. A 2000 point protoss should never 4 gate in PvZ because it simply doesn't work, but a 500 point Protoss will be able to. At the same time, there are strategies that a 2000 point player can pull off that is completely obsolete in tournament level play, but we don't view his strategies as competitive strategies, rather ladder strategies. If your MMR is the same as another player's, you will be playing the same people that he does. Therefore if you adopt his style of play and what works for him, you will be successful at that certain ladder rating as well. Lower point players can try to adopt that strategy as well in hopes that they can move up to your position in the ladder. So basically what I'm saying is that your ladder rating is important because you are talking about a specific strategy that works at a specific ladder rating, not because it will work in the highest level play.
Diamond Player Here... - Page 2
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
I would disagree that ladder ratings mean nothing. Ladder ratings are quite important when discussing in the strategy section. We can't see people's MMR but by people's ladder ratings, we can expect that they are playing against people with similar ladder ratings. If someone says that they are 2000 point, their game is more based around strategy and tactics, while if someone says they are in platinum, their game is more based around not doing something fundamentally wrong. Also, certain strategies work better at certain ladder ratings. A 2000 point protoss should never 4 gate in PvZ because it simply doesn't work, but a 500 point Protoss will be able to. At the same time, there are strategies that a 2000 point player can pull off that is completely obsolete in tournament level play, but we don't view his strategies as competitive strategies, rather ladder strategies. If your MMR is the same as another player's, you will be playing the same people that he does. Therefore if you adopt his style of play and what works for him, you will be successful at that certain ladder rating as well. Lower point players can try to adopt that strategy as well in hopes that they can move up to your position in the ladder. So basically what I'm saying is that your ladder rating is important because you are talking about a specific strategy that works at a specific ladder rating, not because it will work in the highest level play. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
And we all know most theory-crafting is utter bullshit be it from a 2k diamond or a .2k bronze unless tested and proven valid in game. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
qxc doesn't say he's X rated in diamond because everyone reads the name and knows that he's good, so they don't question it. Diamond people can be wrong too though, like when somebody was complaining about mass thors and people were quoting other guys saying omg he had Roach/BL and lost, and it turns out he let the T get 3 free bases and made tons of more subtle macro mistakes, but had the right unit composition, something that would escape the majority of the sc community. the fact is you don't find any silver players that understand the game well, they might understand certain unit compositions being good, but that isn't what starcraft is about. The reason people like ret and nony can come and play 100 games and be better than people playing 1000 games is that they already understand the way to optimize their micro and macro and thus make excellent build orders that will steamroll almost everybody but somebody of an equal skill - they just need basic knowledge of unit composition and use the superior mechanics to win. For example the DJwheat coaching session. DJwheat had a pretty good idea on the outside of how zvz works, with the whole, mutas are great for harass, roaches are a counter to hydra, etc. However he was randomly making units and drones and didn't really know exactly what he could get away with and always had like 50% of the drones he should have had. Coupled with bad macro that day was trying to get rid of but that wasn't the only issue. Wow you're 2000+ good job do you know any races besides your own? Anyone 2000+ can easily play their offraces at a similar level unless they're not zerg and going into zerg (mechanics are a bit different so you can't learn straight away) because they know how to macro and how to be efficient. They'll take maybe 20 games to learn basic unit compositions and then they'll play not at the same level but able to play probably with 500 points of their main race rating. i'll finish off with a quote from the MBC coach papa bear "If watching pro games makes you a progamer then everyone in korea can do it" | ||
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Kitkatzy
United States213 Posts
On November 07 2010 01:51 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: You're completely missing the point below mid diamond you could have an idea of what you're supposed to be doing but lack the skills to actually do them. Read that quote again it has 0 factor with you having an opinion. Thats the thing anyone can have an opinion and as long as they back it up with solid facts why the fuck does it matter what their rank is? Guess what it doesn't the whole "oh he's probably a gold scrub his opinion doesn't matter" is the elitist bullshit I'm talking about that has no place in any argument as you should be evaluating the argument not the person. I have to disagree. My roommate had never played a video game before in his life and got to diamond as terran with 30 apm in the first two weeks. If you are silver or gold, you have no understanding of the game at all. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
Are you serious? You almost made a valid point then you threw in the random thing about a 4 gate never working at 2k point level. The issue with this is there are multiple ways of 4 gating, if you're trying to use the most basic level I'm going to make 4 warpgates not care where my chrono boosts go and make zealots and sentries... Well yes that's not going to work against a 2000 point Zerg. Also the maps matter, obviously on blistering sands mixing in some stalkers to break the rocks and get into their base quickly is rather potent if you do it correctly. Watch the koreans who stream on teamliquid they're rather highly rated for the most part and both win with that, or lose to it. Go watch Capoch replays that dude is super aggressive with 4 gates if you watch his series vs TTOne it wasn't working but he adjusted his timings on the build and then suddenly won 3 games in a row. That's PvP but it shows how 4 gates can be adjusted to the player, the map etc. At the point where Capoch likes to add a robo and make a warp prism if you've done any sort of damage at all with the initial push you can expand and go into a more of a macro game. Simply saying 4 gate doesn't tell me anything. Did you save chrono boosts? If you did were they all blown on warpgates? Did you save some for your warpgates too? Where did you put your pylon? Making a great 4 gate strategy is all about streamlining the build as much as possible and using your Chrono Boosts intelligently. Go watch Nony replays he has a lot of builds where he uses his Chronos differently than any other protoss at the moment but if you sit back and think "Why did he do that." Then you realize he actually winds up slightly ahead out of it. Yes there are strategies that have high skill limitations because if you misclick you're going to fucking die IE Kyhol's TvP cutting a reactor for the fastest possible ghost off 2 rax for a solid EMP rush. If his emp misses he's kind of screwed but that doesn't make it a bad strategy. The point is there are a lot of good sources of commentary around (and bad sources) there are people who watch this game far more than play it and if they're listening to the right people and absorbing data they know a lot. If you're talking to someone and the first thing you do is look up the rank you're really only hurting yourself. And all the people assuming all low level players are bad go watch some of Day9's newbie tuesday shows. I know a lot of people who arent newbies ignore those shows but a lot of the times the low rank players in those games all of their mistakes are stemming from one problem. Personally I find it interesting to see Day9 using replays of only low rank/league players and how surprisingly some of them look as good if not better than Diamond players I've seen. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
LOL ![[image loading]](http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3776/80066933.gif) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6745/48636644.jpg) Stolen from here. Back on topic, you can be a total noob at playing starcraft but have an incredibly deep understanding of each matchup or you can be a extremely strong mechanical player that just bang their heads against people with lesser mechanics to grind up the ladder. In game skill, much less ladder points, does not equal good theorycrafting. Though it definitely helps to have experience against people at a high level it matters more how much the person thinks about the game and how critically they examine aspects of each matchup. Take for example commentators. Commentators are often not very good at the game but a good one will still be quite knowledgable. There's also people who just play custom games vs practice partners | ||
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Graham
Canada1259 Posts
Next thing you know the entire thread devolves into LOL YOUR OPINION IS USELESS GET TO DIAMOND FIRST OMG LOL NOT DIAMOND WTF UR DOIN SOMETHIN WRONG NOOOB!, regardless if the player has a really strong argument or evidence of something that could use a change. You don't have to get to diamond to understand the game a ton either. You can even just watch "pro-gamer" commentated games, tournaments like MLG, or even just watch the Day9 Daily consistently to have a grasp on the game. While I was never higher then a D- in SC1 because I was horrible with APM and mechanics of Terran, I still completely understood the strategies for all (if not most) match ups just from watching months of Proleague/MSL/OSL. That being said.. - theres a bunch of posts by silver players saying to OMG NERF THIS because they don't know the mechanics of the game (but not ALL silver players are in this group). - theres a bunch of "high 2000+ diamond" players who spew absolute crap in the strategy forum because they're trying to flex their e-dick or raging because they got 6pooled and they feel the need to start up a thread because of it. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
And it's true that more or less anyone below diamond is borderline retarded or they just don't know very much about the game, and that definitely does factor into the credibility of what they say about the game. Is it such a crime that people want others to see their rank and give them the benefit of the doubt instead of just assuming they are another idiot who doesn't know how to play? At the end of the day is it truly that much different than latching onto iccup for example? I mean not one of you have a russian accent so you clearly aren't from theabyss (also the incredible lack of knowledge of the bw scene), but using the iccup name lends you recognizability and some credibility among forum goers.. | ||
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
As a platinum random player with about 50 games under my belt, I have to agree with raelcun. I get matched with platinum and diamond players, both in matchmaking and in custom games, and a lot of the time there's no real distinction between their understanding, decision making, or skills. I've seriously had diamond players go 4 gate push, then expand, then colossi, even though they scout my mech play. And to top it all off, they forcefield my siege tank line, protecting it from zealots. | ||
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Nono, you're just terrible. (jk, nothing against lower level players) I guess the reason most lower level players get ignored is because the majority of them, not all, just write random, nonsensical crap and most people, including me, do not want to read through every single one of them so instead just use a heuristic approach of disregarding all of them. The only players' inputs that I place value in are from pros whom I have heard of, and even then, you have to take it with a grain of salt. | ||
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On November 07 2010 01:40 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: "Err... well I know the Protoss match ups." Good job my point exactly, I've known Silver players who had deep understanding of the game just didn't know how to fucking play it. So next time you're tempted to start off an argument with "Hey 2100 Zerg here!" Just slap yourself real good across the face then use a real argument. this is so true | ||
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RageOverdose
United States690 Posts
On November 07 2010 02:45 gurrpp wrote: I think a lot of people are misinterpreting this a bit. Definitely. People need to prove that they have an understanding. That was the whole point. It all comes from facts. If you have facts to back up your opinion, then your rank won't change that. | ||
MisterD
Germany1338 Posts
Look, i'm diamond too: Took me 23 games only, without ever having played 1v1 on any rts before. Damn, i must be a god of strategy! ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ev0bf.jpg) /edit: wtfpwn  i have 8 more bonus pool than you, but you have 20 more achievement points. Guess i lose. xD This is why i watch your stream, and not the other way around for sure! | ||
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Alou
United States3748 Posts
Yea people who bring ranking into discussion are annoying as hell. | ||
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ilovezil
United States4143 Posts
Bunch of scrubs claim they're diamond "xxxx" point ladder ranking. Bunch of scrubs believe this holds as a valid argument against others in a strategy/skill debate. OP and a bunch of others facepalm as scrubs make an ass out of themselves. Sure it is more probable that a solid silver player may not be as good or knowledgeable about the game, but objectively speaking, it is ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT to the argument at hand, meaning it holds no ground when presenting whatever claim you have about the game. | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On November 07 2010 02:34 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: @Ray Are you serious? You almost made a valid point then you threw in the random thing about a 4 gate never working at 2k point level. The issue with this is there are multiple ways of 4 gating, if you're trying to use the most basic level I'm going to make 4 warpgates not care where my chrono boosts go and make zealots and sentries... Well yes that's not going to work against a 2000 point Zerg. Also the maps matter, obviously on blistering sands mixing in some stalkers to break the rocks and get into their base quickly is rather potent if you do it correctly. Watch the koreans who stream on teamliquid they're rather highly rated for the most part and both win with that, or lose to it. Go watch Capoch replays that dude is super aggressive with 4 gates if you watch his series vs TTOne it wasn't working but he adjusted his timings on the build and then suddenly won 3 games in a row. That's PvP but it shows how 4 gates can be adjusted to the player, the map etc. At the point where Capoch likes to add a robo and make a warp prism if you've done any sort of damage at all with the initial push you can expand and go into a more of a macro game. Simply saying 4 gate doesn't tell me anything. Did you save chrono boosts? If you did were they all blown on warpgates? Did you save some for your warpgates too? Where did you put your pylon? Making a great 4 gate strategy is all about streamlining the build as much as possible and using your Chrono Boosts intelligently. Go watch Nony replays he has a lot of builds where he uses his Chronos differently than any other protoss at the moment but if you sit back and think "Why did he do that." Then you realize he actually winds up slightly ahead out of it. Yes there are strategies that have high skill limitations because if you misclick you're going to fucking die IE Kyhol's TvP cutting a reactor for the fastest possible ghost off 2 rax for a solid EMP rush. If his emp misses he's kind of screwed but that doesn't make it a bad strategy. The point is there are a lot of good sources of commentary around (and bad sources) there are people who watch this game far more than play it and if they're listening to the right people and absorbing data they know a lot. If you're talking to someone and the first thing you do is look up the rank you're really only hurting yourself. And all the people assuming all low level players are bad go watch some of Day9's newbie tuesday shows. I know a lot of people who arent newbies ignore those shows but a lot of the times the low rank players in those games all of their mistakes are stemming from one problem. Personally I find it interesting to see Day9 using replays of only low rank/league players and how surprisingly some of them look as good if not better than Diamond players I've seen. My point regarding the 4 gate wasn't about the validity of it at higher levels, it was used as an example to state how certain strategies depreciate and change as you go higher in the ladder. If a platinum player posts a PvZ Lost Temple help thread, we may tell him to try a certain 4 gate build. If a 2000 point diamond posts the same thread, maybe a 4 gate isn't the best idea. Even if it is, it's going to be some tuned variation of it. As another example, take PvZ on Xel Naga. An early 4-6 stalker push usually wins the game outright at lower level diamond, but at higher level diamond, it's done as pressure to force Zerg to react in a certain way. As you stated yourself, there are different builds that require different skill levels. A silver player, no matter how deep of an understanding he has of the game, is not going to effectively perform a strategy where misclick=death such as your Kyhol's TvP example, and while it's not a bad strategy as a whole, it's a terrible strategy for low ranking players. That's the sort of strategy we tell higher diamond players to do instead. We wouldn't be able to know if they don't tell us their ladder ratings. Ladder ratings are not a representation of someone's understanding of the game, but rather an estimate in regards to the skill level of players that he plays. Certain builds work on certain ladder ratings, and have different skill requirements as well. It's not a bad idea for a silver player to be 4 gating with zealots and sentries and never doing chrono boost. That's how they learn fundamental mechanics of the game while performing a strong build at the silver level. We wouldn't tell a top diamond player to do that. In order for us to know what kinds of things we should be teaching a certain individual, we need to know his ladder ratings. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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SilentCrono
United States1420 Posts
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