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Hi guys,
First of all, I want to let you know that this isn't another blog for whinining/raging.
What I want is to hear your opinions and thoughts.
As you know, Blizzard are having a look at PvT at the moment, especially high templars. What I fear, however, is that they may nerf them. Obviously, that might affect PvZ as well although they haven't said (have they?) that there is a problem with it too.
My suggestion is simple, yet I don't know if it's the smartest.
Let's say HTs are really broken at PvT. Instead of nerfing it for all match-ups, why don't Blizzard nerf it only for PvT? A.k.a nerf for a single match-up.
If you haven't understood, I'm going to give you an example:
ATM:
Psi Storm does 20 dmg / sec.
What if it became (for example):
PvT: 15 dmg / sec
PvZ/PvP: 20 dmg / sec (no changes)
I'll be glad to hear what you think. 
 
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that's impossible and extremely inelegant.
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Let's play PPVZT!
Game breaks
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i would rage so damn hard if they nerfed high templars cuz bronze leaguers dont know how to utilize ghosts which nullify sentries and temps..especially when templar storms are so easy to micro out of and they do almost nothing unless you land like 6 on their bio ball
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On October 26 2010 09:36 LSB wrote:
Let's play PPVZT!
Game breaks
Can't programmers write code that makes storm does different damage to each race if you meet units from 2 races?
For example, you hit stalkers + marauders.
Storm will do 15 dmg/sec to marauders and 20 dmg/sec to stalkers.
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On October 26 2010 09:38 slimshady wrote:Can't programmers write code that makes storm does different damage to each race if you meet units from 2 races?
Sure they can, but they're not going to. It's very, very, very inelegant.
For instance, marauder drops used to cause problems with buildings. Why not make them not able to damage Nexuses and Hatcheries? Because that's unintuitive and makes no sense. It not only makes the game harder to learn, it makes tooltips just stupid.
Having internal consistency in the game is very important for beginners to start to understand the game.
EDIT: For example, say you're explaining high templar to a new player. Is it easier to note, "Psi storm does 80 damage," or "Psi storm does 80 damage, except to terran, where it does 60." Any player who didn't know about the specific balance patch would ask why that was the case, and for probably 75% of the player base, there would be no apparent reason.
Yes, slippery slope is a logical fallacy, but if they implemented this sort of balance, essentially there would be three entirely different games: TvP, TvZ, PvZ all having essentially different units.
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I feel like nerfing ht is not the way to go at all, if blizzard decides to improve terran's lategame, they should do so by giving terran more options, or slight buffs, rather than nerf ht, which would only serve to force toss into robo even more, also, the removal of thor energy was a pretty big buff imo, without feedback, toss needs immortals or carriers to fight thors, neither of which are in the ht tech tree, if anything templar/stargate trees need buffs, if this breaks balance somewhere else, adjust within the other race
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I think Blizzard needs to watch some replays of Terrans that know how to use Ghosts.
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On October 26 2010 09:33 slimshady wrote:Hi guys, First of all, I want to let you know that this isn't another blog for whinining/raging. What I want is to hear your opinions and thoughts. As you know, Blizzard are having a look at PvT at the moment, especially high templars. What I fear, however, is that they may nerf them. Obviously, that might affect PvZ as well although they haven't said (have they?) that there is a problem with it too. My suggestion is simple, yet I don't know if it's the smartest. Let's say HTs are really broken at PvT. Instead of nerfing it for all match-ups, why don't Blizzard nerf it only for PvT? A.k.a nerf for a single match-up. If you haven't understood, I'm going to give you an example: ATM: Psi Storm does 20 dmg / sec. What if it became (for example): PvT: 15 dmg / sec PvZ/PvP: 20 dmg / sec (no changes) I'll be glad to hear what you think.
well that would be ignoring the main issue that terran and zerg have, which is the colossus. colossus is a freakin mid game monster.
for a while, terrans said ok i will get alot of vikings and that sort of worked until protoss remembered that they can get blink, and when they have a late game engagement, the stalkers will blink under the viking, take them out, and then the colossus just clean house.
I know idra's main complaint as a zerg is the colossus too. maybe other zergs can answer better than me.
But to focus on the HT is too ignore the main problem. I agree that HT is too powerful, HT will shit on a terran all day, but so does colossus, and if you can get your apm up to 200, atleast you can have a semi-chance to emp the HT. but usually they will just feedback you with the HT longer range than the ghost and youll say oh... wow high templars are really good. lol
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TBH I see a possible marauder nerf(though I think this would be overkill at this point) + a few late game buffs in exchange (maybe make mech stronger?) as they mentioned they were concerned about terran being too strong early game, and toss being too weak late game.
But I feel balance is pretty tight right now, and they would not be major changes. Probably a minor tweak like we saw with roach range.
I think the main issue in PvT is the Collosi -> HT tech switch.
While there are other ways to play PvT, most standard PvT flow like this:
Terran goes bio, quick concussive shells.
~Small battles happen, Terran can win game here with good micro, and if his opponent makes micro mistakes.
Toss goes robo for colossi and early obs.
Terran gets viking to counter colossi
Toss goes defensive while tech switching to temps.
~Terran can once again try to win the game here if he can break toss defense.
Tech switch done the money supply spent on vikings is now nearly worthless.
By the time Terran gets ghosts out, there are more temps than he can handle, and usually finds himself in a very defensive position.
If you want an example of this game flow, see NEXGenius vs Loner on Scrap Station, either set 1 or set 2 of blizzcon grand finals.
At this point it becomes a heavy micro battle, but due to the mechanics of warpgates, and him being able to warp in waves of temps as long as gas allows(focusing on zealots for backup), and with ghosts being equal in cost to a HT + Zealot(Ghosts also have a longer build time, and tie up your barracks production), I would say Toss has a pretty major advantage. Considering if you emp his temps, your ghost is kinda worthless as it has no energy, but toss can still morph archons.
But hey a good placed EMP can turn the tide of battle there as well. But its too much reliance on 1 unit, when both of you should be on 3 bases at that point. With warpgates and chronoboost, toss can just zealot/HT/Archon macro to victory faster than you can pump ghosts for EMP.
I have seen it go both ways though, but toss seems to have a much easier time.
On storm doing different damage per race:
It is generally not good design to have a single ability behave differently on a case basis.
There was at one point, when arena in WoW was in a state of imbalance(a specific point, as some would argue its always in a state of imbalance  ) where the community asked the devs: "If talents and some spells are the problem, why not make them behave differently in PvE and PvP".
The reasoning for not doing that from the dev team was they considered it bad design.
Since design principles usually carry over, I do not see this solution likely unless it is absolutely the only option.
Also general programming principles really urge to minimize this sort of logic when possible. Even though the implementation of this would be very simple:
switch(Unit.race)
{
case Terran:
Unit.takeDamage(15);
default:
Unit.takeDamage(20);
}
and so on. But that is TERRIBLY ugly code, just using it as a quick example.
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On October 26 2010 09:46 Grond wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to watch some replays of Terrans that know how to use Ghosts.
yeah they do dont worry, Actually i used a 2 rax expo into 4 rax ghosts mid game push alot vs toss. the problem that the HT can outrange the ghost with feedback, rendering the ghosts useless. sure, if your careless with your HT , they can get emped but @ the high diamond level, few tosses are careless
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On October 26 2010 10:14 trotskyist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 09:46 Grond wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to watch some replays of Terrans that know how to use Ghosts. yeah they do dont worry, Actually i used a 2 rax expo into 4 rax ghosts mid game push alot vs toss. the problem that the HT can outrange the ghost with feedback, rendering the ghosts useless. sure, if your careless with your HT , they can get emped but @ the high diamond level, few tosses are careless
That is the opposite of what is true.
EMP has a longer effective range than Feedback.
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United States47024 Posts
The simple reason for this is that it makes the spectator experience much more complicated--the same thing does different things in different contexts. That's just hard to follow.
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meh i think they should honestly just nerf collosus, not HTs...
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On October 26 2010 10:35 SilentCrono wrote:
meh i think they should honestly just nerf collosus, not HTs...
Yes.
Colossi ruin Protoss as they're the only Protoss unit with DPS comparable to the other two races. This forces the other two races to have unstoppable Air-to-Air counters (Viking/Corrupter) or they'd autolose to Collosi every game, which in turn ruins big air units.
Reavers were dramatically more interesting than Colossi, because they were good in small numbers/relatively small investments, but stacked poorly with each other and were very difficult to control effectively in large armies. Protoss needed High Templar because Storm is more nimble for large armies, not because Zerg/Terran had units that were guaranteed to snipe your Reavers.
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If storm will be strong . zerg would died.so u should use feedback .It is effective to Units that have an energy.and you should use Guardian Shield , this is good ,It decreases to Terran's infatry Offensive power.in especially marines Offensive power .Immortal can defeat Thor and Marauder easier and Mass Phoenix is good! .. GooD luck for your starcraft life
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On October 26 2010 10:21 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:14 trotskyist wrote:On October 26 2010 09:46 Grond wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to watch some replays of Terrans that know how to use Ghosts. yeah they do dont worry, Actually i used a 2 rax expo into 4 rax ghosts mid game push alot vs toss. the problem that the HT can outrange the ghost with feedback, rendering the ghosts useless. sure, if your careless with your HT , they can get emped but @ the high diamond level, few tosses are careless That is the opposite of what is true. EMP has a longer effective range than Feedback.
Also Ghosts have Cloak. If he is spotting your Ghosts then you don't have a Raven. I'm still amazed at the lack of Ravens even at tournaments, Terrans giving Protoss free spotting of their army all game. Even vs Zerg they waste 2k+ in minerals to eliminate creep tumors when they could have just gotten a Raven
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EPT
