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I see lots of T overcommitting their gas on tanks / thors. The fact is that the Z can always look at your composition every 40-50s, and skew 2 rounds of production to the other way.
Ultimately, neither unit helps deal with how quickly baneling bombing cleans up marines when you are pushing out to contest the 4th base before hive.
The unit that is still being overlooked in this regard is the raven. Raven is the only gas dump that allows you to stabilize your composition to w/e the Z shifts to (other than ultras) and allows you to protect your mech.
With just a raven cloud of 4, you can reasonably expect to be able to put down something like 10 turrets in a major engagement. That's the equivalent of a 20 food rebound after your marines are wiped, and basically means you instantly have 15-20 marines on the board (not to mention excess mana into PDD vs muta). This also means that after the banelings have all been burned, you will still have a meat shield for your tanks + thors to clean up the remaining roaches/mutas/lings.
Without this unit, a proper Z composition will just chew through your marine mineral dump too quickly and leave your tech units completely exposed and ineffective.
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I just watched a replay with... er.. HopeTorture vs Fruitdealer (? not sure) where the T went mass ravens out of 3 starports. Fucking beautiful.
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How about counter drops? like attack their expos with marauder drops helps as well I guess.
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The TvZ counter to Baneling Bomb is immaculate marine splitting.
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Yeah, positioning all the marines and marauders slightly apart when defending from baneling bust and then having 2-3 groups when moving out so you can micro as many blings as possible does work.
Also thors aren´t that good against ling baneling unless Zerg gets air units too IMO.
Good scouting and fast drops bring best results to me.
Many zergs build their base so badly you can exploit it and take out lots of drones and tech buildings. And as qxc said MMM is best in small numbers.
Ravens are also almost useless when you go drop heavy because he can´t really burrow bomb units inside medivacs.
Also drop play is fun, ravens are boring.
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Baneling bomb means OLs dropping baneling on your marines/tanks during combat.
There a lot of map positions where you won't be able to reliably spread your marines, or have the time to. And even if you did, enough baneling will still plow through the marines.
For 800 gas, you get casts + you get renewable use out of the units. 10 turrets is 1500 hp. 4 thors is 1600 hp AND 24 food, but far lower output against lings.
More thors don't really scale that well against typical compositions (non ultra), nor will you have the time to get them. More raven gives you a harassment tool, and more and more turrets. You can imagine being in late game at around 170 food with 20 food in ravens. That's something like 20 turrets at least during a fight. Imagine being able to spawn 20 marauders instantly (that happen to be good against lings).
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Although not relevant to this discussion, T drops work on some level. In any build up phase, they are pretty pointless against high level Z because mutaling can respond easily. But just after a fight, or during it, drops can do damage.
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On October 24 2010 08:42 roam wrote:
Baneling bomb means OLs dropping baneling on your marines/tanks during combat.
There a lot of map positions where you won't be able to reliably spread your marines, or have the time to. And even if you did, enough baneling will still plow through the marines.
For 800 gas, you get casts + you get renewable use out of the units. 10 turrets is 1500 hp. 4 thors is 1600 hp AND 24 food, but far lower output against lings.
More thors don't really scale that well against typical compositions (non ultra), nor will you have the time to get them. More raven gives you a harassment tool, and more and more turrets. You can imagine being in late game at around 170 food with 20 food in ravens. That's something like 20 turrets at least during a fight. Imagine being able to spawn 20 marauders instantly (that happen to be good against lings).
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Although not relevant to this discussion, T drops work on some level. In any build up phase, they are pretty pointless against high level Z because mutaling can respond easily. But just after a fight, or during it, drops can do damage.
you see the overlords coming, target fire them? im sure stim hasnt been nerfed at all from bw and you can easily kill all the overlords in time
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On October 24 2010 11:15 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 08:42 roam wrote:
Baneling bomb means OLs dropping baneling on your marines/tanks during combat.
There a lot of map positions where you won't be able to reliably spread your marines, or have the time to. And even if you did, enough baneling will still plow through the marines.
For 800 gas, you get casts + you get renewable use out of the units. 10 turrets is 1500 hp. 4 thors is 1600 hp AND 24 food, but far lower output against lings.
More thors don't really scale that well against typical compositions (non ultra), nor will you have the time to get them. More raven gives you a harassment tool, and more and more turrets. You can imagine being in late game at around 170 food with 20 food in ravens. That's something like 20 turrets at least during a fight. Imagine being able to spawn 20 marauders instantly (that happen to be good against lings).
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Although not relevant to this discussion, T drops work on some level. In any build up phase, they are pretty pointless against high level Z because mutaling can respond easily. But just after a fight, or during it, drops can do damage. you see the overlords coming, target fire them? im sure stim hasnt been nerfed at all from bw and you can easily kill all the overlords in time
Yeah and while youre trying to target fire the overlords, dont worry about that ball of roaches picking off all your marines. /sarcasm
Now addressing the OP's point, didn't some terrans at MLG try some raven play? I know I saw raven+mech but it didnt seem to hot against mass roach. I havent really seen a heavy bio with some tanks + raven though.
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You can't target OLs if it's executed properly. There will be too many empty OLs, and in the time you are shooting, he can still deposit them on you.
And you will be forced to constantly back up, leaving your tanks exposed. You just have to spread and try to get a good trade.
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While i tend to stray away from the word "counter", i do think that ravens are a tremendously wonderful unit. In many ways it resembles the Sci Vessel, its an investment that pays out in being able to have the unit a long time and consistently deal out damage with not as large chances of dying (especially with no scourge). Though, instead of irradiate, there are auto turrets (and PDD and SM, though i'm not sure how useful those are in tvz). They definitely are underused in the current state of the game.
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On October 24 2010 14:16 Comeh wrote:
While i tend to stray away from the word "counter", i do think that ravens are a tremendously wonderful unit. In many ways it resembles the Sci Vessel, its an investment that pays out in being able to have the unit a long time and consistently deal out damage with not as large chances of dying (especially with no scourge). Though, instead of irradiate, there are auto turrets (and PDD and SM, though i'm not sure how useful those are in tvz). They definitely are underused in the current state of the game.
Yeah I imagine that in the future of terran there will be numerous immortal raven blobs running around tearing it up
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In day9's funday monday two weeks ago (the 3v3/4v4 where each player gets 1 unit), one player did choose ravens and that raven blob was a serious threat to all 4 of his enemies even though by the time it was built up the game was a 2v4.
PDD's are very useful in TvZ in that they stop hydra and muta attacks.
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EPT
