• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:53
CEST 15:53
KST 22:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror4[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Rollback Netcode in Brood War95.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202620Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)78
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)
Tourneys
RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
Rollback Netcode in Brood War Sagi.gg Launcher Released Fantasy returning? GG Lan Fest Sofia, Bulgaria [this November] ASL22 General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10080 users

Balancing sc2

Blogs > darmousseh
Post a Reply
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 22:29 GMT
#1
You are the creator of a game called black and white. All players have a choice of playing either black or white during the game and its a 1 on 1 game. You are the creator of the game and you have designed it such that black has a tiny disadvantage against white. During a testing period of matchups where players had to switch between black and white between each game over 1000 games you noticed that white wins 55% of the time. This concerns you a little, but you frankly don't care.


Now you release the game to the general public. Each player picks the color they want to be. You notice that more people are playing black 0%, but that the top 200 is 65% black and 35% white. This gets you thinking that black is actually overpowered, except that you don't know that on average, player that play black are about 70 points more skilled than players that play white. Since you don't know this information you try to extrapolate it, except, that you invented a matchmaking algorithm where each player plays games in such a way that their win percentage is always around 50% and at the latest tournament a white player won.



So what information can we gather? The answer? Nothing, it is impossible to know that white is actually overpowered. The information mathematically that you need to determine this is 1. That players who play black are on average 70 points more skilled 2. Two equally skilled players in a black/white game will favor white 55% of the time.

Is there a way to determine 2? Yes, you can test matchups of evenly skilled players who are forced to learn to play as white and as black.

Is there a way to determine 1? No, The rating system being used is a combination of player skill and environment. If the environment is unfavorable this will be reflected as rating. Can we approximate 1? Possibly, if you make a crazy assumption such as that the skill of a player is 95% skill and 5% color. Is there a systematic way of determining this ratio? Yes, if a group of players learned how to play both black and white equally, then you can exprapolate this information.


Why did i post this? Because 1 and 2 are impossible to gather in sc2. It is possible that zerg is actually OP, maybe protoss is OP, unless we have a lot of recent information from similarly skilled players (who have enough games as each race) otherwise we cannot determine either 1 or 2.

When blizzard posts information about win/loss ratio of different matchups what does it mean? It doesn't mean anything. Its possible that player who play terran are simply more skilled on average than zerg, it's possible that zerg adds 50 points to a players skill, but the skill of the players playing it on average lowers it. Maybe cool is an example where he is the same skill as a terran, but that playing zerg gives him an advantage.

The answer is without equal parameters or conditions, all statistics are meaningless.


If you come up with a way for blizzard to get the information about balance without all of the neccesary inforamtion that i just described, please post it and then write a thesis and publish it please.

Also please use probability theory to explain your ideas or at least talk about the minimum information needed.

Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 22:40:47
October 08 2010 22:40 GMT
#2
I think this post is good enough to not be post in blogs . I agree. Blizzard has a very very hard job
ideadude
Profile Joined April 2010
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:07:42
October 08 2010 23:06 GMT
#3
Great analysis. Thanks.

Couldn't the game company recreate (in a sense) the initial experiment where people were (a) forced to play both sides against (b) random opponents? (When the initial 55% win ratio was discovered.)

If you make 1-in-50 games played match people randomly instead of using the match-making algorithm, you would get (b) above.

If you chose a random subset of these games across all races, wouldn't that be the same as (a)?

You would be able to say a random Black paired up against a random White wins x% of the time. This removes all skill from the equation since you didn't match them based on the calculated skill.

The one thing this experiment would miss is the assumption that equally skilled players are as likely to choose Black vs. White. (Maybe unskilled players are drawn towards White since the game released with the White campaign.)

How would you remove this affect? Maybe you grab randomly from people who have played at least 50 games? Maybe you limit things to people who have played White and Black a certain number of times? Not sure.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:19:03
October 08 2010 23:17 GMT
#4
They need to focus on getting each race equally played, but how do you overcome a big influence of terrans and protoss due to those races being featured in the single player?

No idea. But I would really try to get them equally played and then collect a lot of different data. How many #1 guys of each race in their leagues, top 500, statistically what race wins most on [insert map], compare with big tournament results etc etc.

Going at this trying to get a smart algorithm in the works is just not how you perfom data mining, you need to look at it in EVERY possible perspective you can think of.

What you suggest here is basic probability and it's miles away from being useful
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 23:54 GMT
#5
I have had bad luck posting stuff in starcraft 2 general. Usually some moderator comes by and says "This is already being discussed here" or "This should be a blog post" so i usually post here.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Kaptein[konijn]
Profile Joined August 2005
Netherlands110 Posts
October 09 2010 08:44 GMT
#6
I agree, you can't make meaningful balance-related statements based on statistics in the current match making system. People make a lot of invalid implicit or explicit assumptions when they believe they can.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 7m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 364
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 37153
Calm 8150
Bisu 2184
Rain 1712
Jaedong 950
Horang2 613
BeSt 590
FanTaSy 515
Soma 423
Rush 396
[ Show more ]
Larva 368
Stork 321
Light 296
Zeus 183
Snow 179
ZerO 166
Barracks 141
Free 117
910 97
Mind 86
Killer 71
Mong 54
Hyun 45
Sea.KH 45
ToSsGirL 38
Shinee 36
Pusan 29
Aegong 27
Terrorterran 18
Hm[arnc] 17
Sexy 16
sorry 16
Rock 14
Noble 9
Sacsri 8
Dota 2
Gorgc6532
XaKoH 395
Counter-Strike
fl0m2740
olofmeister882
Other Games
gofns37541
singsing2311
B2W.Neo874
hiko382
Lowko336
crisheroes304
Mlord269
Hui .159
Livibee143
DeMusliM100
djWHEAT91
RotterdaM86
Mew2King73
QueenE45
Trikslyr37
ZerO(Twitch)13
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 9
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix12
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3922
• Jankos2612
• TFBlade697
Upcoming Events
OSC
9h 7m
Big Brain Bouts
20h 7m
Rex vs INexorable
GgMaChine vs HeRoMaRinE
Reynor vs herO
AI Arena Tournament
1d 3h
BSL: Ladder Tournament
1d 5h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 20h
Patches Events
2 days
BSL Open Qualifier
2 days
BSL Open Qualifier
2 days
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-08
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
HCC Season 3
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.