• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:47
CEST 23:47
KST 06:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?125Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!46
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism SC4ALL: II Winner will earn a spot at HSC 30! SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 7/8 Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game
Tourneys
KSL Week #92 IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly 2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This
Brood War
General
[D] Brainstorming a balance patch for Brood war BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Broodwar Prediction Market Terran or Protoss Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group B [ASL22] Ro16 Group A Small VOD Thread 2.0 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Diablo IV [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion!
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8730 users

Balancing sc2

Blogs > darmousseh
Post a Reply
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 22:29 GMT
#1
You are the creator of a game called black and white. All players have a choice of playing either black or white during the game and its a 1 on 1 game. You are the creator of the game and you have designed it such that black has a tiny disadvantage against white. During a testing period of matchups where players had to switch between black and white between each game over 1000 games you noticed that white wins 55% of the time. This concerns you a little, but you frankly don't care.


Now you release the game to the general public. Each player picks the color they want to be. You notice that more people are playing black 0%, but that the top 200 is 65% black and 35% white. This gets you thinking that black is actually overpowered, except that you don't know that on average, player that play black are about 70 points more skilled than players that play white. Since you don't know this information you try to extrapolate it, except, that you invented a matchmaking algorithm where each player plays games in such a way that their win percentage is always around 50% and at the latest tournament a white player won.



So what information can we gather? The answer? Nothing, it is impossible to know that white is actually overpowered. The information mathematically that you need to determine this is 1. That players who play black are on average 70 points more skilled 2. Two equally skilled players in a black/white game will favor white 55% of the time.

Is there a way to determine 2? Yes, you can test matchups of evenly skilled players who are forced to learn to play as white and as black.

Is there a way to determine 1? No, The rating system being used is a combination of player skill and environment. If the environment is unfavorable this will be reflected as rating. Can we approximate 1? Possibly, if you make a crazy assumption such as that the skill of a player is 95% skill and 5% color. Is there a systematic way of determining this ratio? Yes, if a group of players learned how to play both black and white equally, then you can exprapolate this information.


Why did i post this? Because 1 and 2 are impossible to gather in sc2. It is possible that zerg is actually OP, maybe protoss is OP, unless we have a lot of recent information from similarly skilled players (who have enough games as each race) otherwise we cannot determine either 1 or 2.

When blizzard posts information about win/loss ratio of different matchups what does it mean? It doesn't mean anything. Its possible that player who play terran are simply more skilled on average than zerg, it's possible that zerg adds 50 points to a players skill, but the skill of the players playing it on average lowers it. Maybe cool is an example where he is the same skill as a terran, but that playing zerg gives him an advantage.

The answer is without equal parameters or conditions, all statistics are meaningless.


If you come up with a way for blizzard to get the information about balance without all of the neccesary inforamtion that i just described, please post it and then write a thesis and publish it please.

Also please use probability theory to explain your ideas or at least talk about the minimum information needed.

Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 22:40:47
October 08 2010 22:40 GMT
#2
I think this post is good enough to not be post in blogs . I agree. Blizzard has a very very hard job
ideadude
Profile Joined April 2010
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:07:42
October 08 2010 23:06 GMT
#3
Great analysis. Thanks.

Couldn't the game company recreate (in a sense) the initial experiment where people were (a) forced to play both sides against (b) random opponents? (When the initial 55% win ratio was discovered.)

If you make 1-in-50 games played match people randomly instead of using the match-making algorithm, you would get (b) above.

If you chose a random subset of these games across all races, wouldn't that be the same as (a)?

You would be able to say a random Black paired up against a random White wins x% of the time. This removes all skill from the equation since you didn't match them based on the calculated skill.

The one thing this experiment would miss is the assumption that equally skilled players are as likely to choose Black vs. White. (Maybe unskilled players are drawn towards White since the game released with the White campaign.)

How would you remove this affect? Maybe you grab randomly from people who have played at least 50 games? Maybe you limit things to people who have played White and Black a certain number of times? Not sure.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:19:03
October 08 2010 23:17 GMT
#4
They need to focus on getting each race equally played, but how do you overcome a big influence of terrans and protoss due to those races being featured in the single player?

No idea. But I would really try to get them equally played and then collect a lot of different data. How many #1 guys of each race in their leagues, top 500, statistically what race wins most on [insert map], compare with big tournament results etc etc.

Going at this trying to get a smart algorithm in the works is just not how you perfom data mining, you need to look at it in EVERY possible perspective you can think of.

What you suggest here is basic probability and it's miles away from being useful
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 23:54 GMT
#5
I have had bad luck posting stuff in starcraft 2 general. Usually some moderator comes by and says "This is already being discussed here" or "This should be a blog post" so i usually post here.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Kaptein[konijn]
Profile Joined August 2005
Netherlands110 Posts
October 09 2010 08:44 GMT
#6
I agree, you can't make meaningful balance-related statements based on statistics in the current match making system. People make a lot of invalid implicit or explicit assumptions when they believe they can.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 13m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 83
StarCraft: Brood War
soO 34
910 23
Dota 2
monkeys_forever347
canceldota121
League of Legends
Doublelift3401
Other Games
summit1g6199
fl0m803
Beastyqt732
RotterdaM330
shahzam288
Pyrionflax206
XaKoH 165
KnowMe138
ArmadaUGS100
Trikslyr48
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 25
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Response 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22229
Other Games
• imaqtpie933
• Shiphtur159
Upcoming Events
The PiG Daily
1h 13m
CranKy Ducklings
12h 13m
WardiTV Invitational
13h 13m
Cure vs Zoun
SHIN vs Classic
ByuN vs MaxPax
Percival vs YoungYakov
AI Arena Tournament
19h 13m
OSC
22h 43m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 12h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 13h
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
1d 17h
Spirit vs Mixu
Clem vs TBD
RSL Revival
1d 18h
Serral vs Rogue
BlizzCon
1d 20h
IdrA vs MC
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Light vs JyJ
Soulkey vs hero
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Shinee
Shine vs EffOrt
GSL
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-10
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSA
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.