• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:06
CEST 16:06
KST 23:06
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-222Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-69SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-64PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)14
StarCraft 2
General
The Good, the Bad and the 8 Workers Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Serral wins HomeStory Cup 29 StarCraft 2 at SC4ALL II Invite #4/8 - Percival Protoss AoE skill expression
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion Are you ready for ASL 22? NEW HYPE VIDEO BW General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 Escore Tournament - Season 3 SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-6
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Diablo 2 thread General RTS Discussion Thread ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Iain M Banks Says He Has Cancer And Months To Live European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Clem Fan Club INnoVation Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
NBA General Discussion Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
What is a Gamer?
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6405 users

Balancing sc2

Blogs > darmousseh
Post a Reply
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 22:29 GMT
#1
You are the creator of a game called black and white. All players have a choice of playing either black or white during the game and its a 1 on 1 game. You are the creator of the game and you have designed it such that black has a tiny disadvantage against white. During a testing period of matchups where players had to switch between black and white between each game over 1000 games you noticed that white wins 55% of the time. This concerns you a little, but you frankly don't care.


Now you release the game to the general public. Each player picks the color they want to be. You notice that more people are playing black 0%, but that the top 200 is 65% black and 35% white. This gets you thinking that black is actually overpowered, except that you don't know that on average, player that play black are about 70 points more skilled than players that play white. Since you don't know this information you try to extrapolate it, except, that you invented a matchmaking algorithm where each player plays games in such a way that their win percentage is always around 50% and at the latest tournament a white player won.



So what information can we gather? The answer? Nothing, it is impossible to know that white is actually overpowered. The information mathematically that you need to determine this is 1. That players who play black are on average 70 points more skilled 2. Two equally skilled players in a black/white game will favor white 55% of the time.

Is there a way to determine 2? Yes, you can test matchups of evenly skilled players who are forced to learn to play as white and as black.

Is there a way to determine 1? No, The rating system being used is a combination of player skill and environment. If the environment is unfavorable this will be reflected as rating. Can we approximate 1? Possibly, if you make a crazy assumption such as that the skill of a player is 95% skill and 5% color. Is there a systematic way of determining this ratio? Yes, if a group of players learned how to play both black and white equally, then you can exprapolate this information.


Why did i post this? Because 1 and 2 are impossible to gather in sc2. It is possible that zerg is actually OP, maybe protoss is OP, unless we have a lot of recent information from similarly skilled players (who have enough games as each race) otherwise we cannot determine either 1 or 2.

When blizzard posts information about win/loss ratio of different matchups what does it mean? It doesn't mean anything. Its possible that player who play terran are simply more skilled on average than zerg, it's possible that zerg adds 50 points to a players skill, but the skill of the players playing it on average lowers it. Maybe cool is an example where he is the same skill as a terran, but that playing zerg gives him an advantage.

The answer is without equal parameters or conditions, all statistics are meaningless.


If you come up with a way for blizzard to get the information about balance without all of the neccesary inforamtion that i just described, please post it and then write a thesis and publish it please.

Also please use probability theory to explain your ideas or at least talk about the minimum information needed.

Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 22:40:47
October 08 2010 22:40 GMT
#2
I think this post is good enough to not be post in blogs . I agree. Blizzard has a very very hard job
ideadude
Profile Joined April 2010
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:07:42
October 08 2010 23:06 GMT
#3
Great analysis. Thanks.

Couldn't the game company recreate (in a sense) the initial experiment where people were (a) forced to play both sides against (b) random opponents? (When the initial 55% win ratio was discovered.)

If you make 1-in-50 games played match people randomly instead of using the match-making algorithm, you would get (b) above.

If you chose a random subset of these games across all races, wouldn't that be the same as (a)?

You would be able to say a random Black paired up against a random White wins x% of the time. This removes all skill from the equation since you didn't match them based on the calculated skill.

The one thing this experiment would miss is the assumption that equally skilled players are as likely to choose Black vs. White. (Maybe unskilled players are drawn towards White since the game released with the White campaign.)

How would you remove this affect? Maybe you grab randomly from people who have played at least 50 games? Maybe you limit things to people who have played White and Black a certain number of times? Not sure.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:19:03
October 08 2010 23:17 GMT
#4
They need to focus on getting each race equally played, but how do you overcome a big influence of terrans and protoss due to those races being featured in the single player?

No idea. But I would really try to get them equally played and then collect a lot of different data. How many #1 guys of each race in their leagues, top 500, statistically what race wins most on [insert map], compare with big tournament results etc etc.

Going at this trying to get a smart algorithm in the works is just not how you perfom data mining, you need to look at it in EVERY possible perspective you can think of.

What you suggest here is basic probability and it's miles away from being useful
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 23:54 GMT
#5
I have had bad luck posting stuff in starcraft 2 general. Usually some moderator comes by and says "This is already being discussed here" or "This should be a blog post" so i usually post here.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Kaptein[konijn]
Profile Joined August 2005
Netherlands110 Posts
October 09 2010 08:44 GMT
#6
I agree, you can't make meaningful balance-related statements based on statistics in the current match making system. People make a lot of invalid implicit or explicit assumptions when they believe they can.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill #258
WardiTV876
EmpressLilyy33
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 53152
Shuttle 2459
Jaedong 2057
actioN 892
Light 748
Zeus 702
Soma 487
firebathero 471
Mini 373
Larva 345
[ Show more ]
BeSt 342
Soulkey 324
Snow 310
ZerO 184
hero 171
Last 131
Rush 124
Dewaltoss 110
Killer 72
Sea.KH 69
Pusan 64
Sharp 63
Mind 58
Hyun 57
soO 55
Sexy 40
Hm[arnc] 28
HiyA 26
Terrorterran 22
scan(afreeca) 22
Shine 20
Rock 15
Icarus 5
Dota 2
canceldota90
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m7436
byalli1965
SPUNJ604
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King171
Other Games
singsing2450
B2W.Neo692
DeMusliM392
XaKoH 160
Hui .155
QueenE67
ZerO(Twitch)11
MindelVK8
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 14
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH280
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV934
League of Legends
• Jankos2469
Upcoming Events
OSC
9h 55m
WardiTV Weekly
20h 55m
The Patches Monday
1d 1h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 19h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 21h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-08
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
RSL Revival: Season 6
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.