• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:14
CEST 14:14
KST 21:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End6Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles1GSTL Returns in 2026!43Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) GSTL Returns in 2026! SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WardiTV Mondays 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
SC4ALL II: Brood War Player Announcement 3/4 - soO BW General Discussion Rush's Odyssey Controversy [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro24 Group B [ASL22] Ro24 Group A Small VOD Thread 2.0 CSLAN 4 is Coming!
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently...
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8369 users

Balancing sc2

Blogs > darmousseh
Post a Reply
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 22:29 GMT
#1
You are the creator of a game called black and white. All players have a choice of playing either black or white during the game and its a 1 on 1 game. You are the creator of the game and you have designed it such that black has a tiny disadvantage against white. During a testing period of matchups where players had to switch between black and white between each game over 1000 games you noticed that white wins 55% of the time. This concerns you a little, but you frankly don't care.


Now you release the game to the general public. Each player picks the color they want to be. You notice that more people are playing black 0%, but that the top 200 is 65% black and 35% white. This gets you thinking that black is actually overpowered, except that you don't know that on average, player that play black are about 70 points more skilled than players that play white. Since you don't know this information you try to extrapolate it, except, that you invented a matchmaking algorithm where each player plays games in such a way that their win percentage is always around 50% and at the latest tournament a white player won.



So what information can we gather? The answer? Nothing, it is impossible to know that white is actually overpowered. The information mathematically that you need to determine this is 1. That players who play black are on average 70 points more skilled 2. Two equally skilled players in a black/white game will favor white 55% of the time.

Is there a way to determine 2? Yes, you can test matchups of evenly skilled players who are forced to learn to play as white and as black.

Is there a way to determine 1? No, The rating system being used is a combination of player skill and environment. If the environment is unfavorable this will be reflected as rating. Can we approximate 1? Possibly, if you make a crazy assumption such as that the skill of a player is 95% skill and 5% color. Is there a systematic way of determining this ratio? Yes, if a group of players learned how to play both black and white equally, then you can exprapolate this information.


Why did i post this? Because 1 and 2 are impossible to gather in sc2. It is possible that zerg is actually OP, maybe protoss is OP, unless we have a lot of recent information from similarly skilled players (who have enough games as each race) otherwise we cannot determine either 1 or 2.

When blizzard posts information about win/loss ratio of different matchups what does it mean? It doesn't mean anything. Its possible that player who play terran are simply more skilled on average than zerg, it's possible that zerg adds 50 points to a players skill, but the skill of the players playing it on average lowers it. Maybe cool is an example where he is the same skill as a terran, but that playing zerg gives him an advantage.

The answer is without equal parameters or conditions, all statistics are meaningless.


If you come up with a way for blizzard to get the information about balance without all of the neccesary inforamtion that i just described, please post it and then write a thesis and publish it please.

Also please use probability theory to explain your ideas or at least talk about the minimum information needed.

Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 22:40:47
October 08 2010 22:40 GMT
#2
I think this post is good enough to not be post in blogs . I agree. Blizzard has a very very hard job
ideadude
Profile Joined April 2010
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:07:42
October 08 2010 23:06 GMT
#3
Great analysis. Thanks.

Couldn't the game company recreate (in a sense) the initial experiment where people were (a) forced to play both sides against (b) random opponents? (When the initial 55% win ratio was discovered.)

If you make 1-in-50 games played match people randomly instead of using the match-making algorithm, you would get (b) above.

If you chose a random subset of these games across all races, wouldn't that be the same as (a)?

You would be able to say a random Black paired up against a random White wins x% of the time. This removes all skill from the equation since you didn't match them based on the calculated skill.

The one thing this experiment would miss is the assumption that equally skilled players are as likely to choose Black vs. White. (Maybe unskilled players are drawn towards White since the game released with the White campaign.)

How would you remove this affect? Maybe you grab randomly from people who have played at least 50 games? Maybe you limit things to people who have played White and Black a certain number of times? Not sure.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:19:03
October 08 2010 23:17 GMT
#4
They need to focus on getting each race equally played, but how do you overcome a big influence of terrans and protoss due to those races being featured in the single player?

No idea. But I would really try to get them equally played and then collect a lot of different data. How many #1 guys of each race in their leagues, top 500, statistically what race wins most on [insert map], compare with big tournament results etc etc.

Going at this trying to get a smart algorithm in the works is just not how you perfom data mining, you need to look at it in EVERY possible perspective you can think of.

What you suggest here is basic probability and it's miles away from being useful
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 23:54 GMT
#5
I have had bad luck posting stuff in starcraft 2 general. Usually some moderator comes by and says "This is already being discussed here" or "This should be a blog post" so i usually post here.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Kaptein[konijn]
Profile Joined August 2005
Netherlands110 Posts
October 09 2010 08:44 GMT
#6
I agree, you can't make meaningful balance-related statements based on statistics in the current match making system. People make a lot of invalid implicit or explicit assumptions when they believe they can.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL
11:00
2026 GSTL: Main Stage Day 1
IntoTheiNu 845
herO (SOOP)158
Maru125
CranKy Ducklings SOOP115
Rogue107
SHIN 102
Cure70
Zoun (SOOP)70
LiquipediaDiscussion
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Ro24 Group B
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
Afreeca ASL 7560
StarCastTV_EN256
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko414
PiGStarcraft331
herO (SOOP) 158
Maru 125
Rogue 107
SHIN 102
Zoun (SOOP) 70
Cure 70
Rex 26
aLtNXZ 16
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 14397
Shuttle 2895
Jaedong 2278
BeSt 1551
Horang2 1216
EffOrt 905
Light 505
Soulkey 337
ZerO 211
Stork 190
[ Show more ]
Rush 140
Larva 118
Snow 104
ToSsGirL 104
Hyun 87
Killer 45
JYJ 40
JulyZerg 36
Bale 35
[sc1f]eonzerg 33
ggaemo 30
Hm[arnc] 28
Sacsri 28
soO 27
hero 27
sSak 25
sorry 20
Free 19
Noble 19
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
IntoTheRainbow 12
zelot 10
Icarus 7
Dota 2
Dendi1905
XBOCT1712
BananaSlamJamma207
canceldota124
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss1028
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King123
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr32
Other Games
B2W.Neo580
crisheroes272
DeMusliM158
Hui .152
Liquid`LucifroN149
QueenE41
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick489
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 208
Other Games
BasetradeTV34
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 13
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 60
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV770
League of Legends
• TFBlade449
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
11h 46m
Replay Cast
20h 46m
Afreeca Starleague
21h 46m
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
22h 46m
Replay Cast
1d 11h
The PondCast
1d 21h
KCM Race Survival
1d 21h
Replay Cast
2 days
Escore
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
The Patches Monday
6 days
GSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 4
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.