• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:09
CEST 12:09
KST 19:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b0IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly4Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"7ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!37Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b 3kb/s downloading patch..... are we back to 1998? Terran or Protoss Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Industrial Park New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate
External Content
Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2v2v2v2 Tournament Star Con San Diego 2026 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread 2026-27 Football Thread placeholder TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Games, Hormones, and "Dark" …
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8323 users

Balancing sc2

Blogs > darmousseh
Post a Reply
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 22:29 GMT
#1
You are the creator of a game called black and white. All players have a choice of playing either black or white during the game and its a 1 on 1 game. You are the creator of the game and you have designed it such that black has a tiny disadvantage against white. During a testing period of matchups where players had to switch between black and white between each game over 1000 games you noticed that white wins 55% of the time. This concerns you a little, but you frankly don't care.


Now you release the game to the general public. Each player picks the color they want to be. You notice that more people are playing black 0%, but that the top 200 is 65% black and 35% white. This gets you thinking that black is actually overpowered, except that you don't know that on average, player that play black are about 70 points more skilled than players that play white. Since you don't know this information you try to extrapolate it, except, that you invented a matchmaking algorithm where each player plays games in such a way that their win percentage is always around 50% and at the latest tournament a white player won.



So what information can we gather? The answer? Nothing, it is impossible to know that white is actually overpowered. The information mathematically that you need to determine this is 1. That players who play black are on average 70 points more skilled 2. Two equally skilled players in a black/white game will favor white 55% of the time.

Is there a way to determine 2? Yes, you can test matchups of evenly skilled players who are forced to learn to play as white and as black.

Is there a way to determine 1? No, The rating system being used is a combination of player skill and environment. If the environment is unfavorable this will be reflected as rating. Can we approximate 1? Possibly, if you make a crazy assumption such as that the skill of a player is 95% skill and 5% color. Is there a systematic way of determining this ratio? Yes, if a group of players learned how to play both black and white equally, then you can exprapolate this information.


Why did i post this? Because 1 and 2 are impossible to gather in sc2. It is possible that zerg is actually OP, maybe protoss is OP, unless we have a lot of recent information from similarly skilled players (who have enough games as each race) otherwise we cannot determine either 1 or 2.

When blizzard posts information about win/loss ratio of different matchups what does it mean? It doesn't mean anything. Its possible that player who play terran are simply more skilled on average than zerg, it's possible that zerg adds 50 points to a players skill, but the skill of the players playing it on average lowers it. Maybe cool is an example where he is the same skill as a terran, but that playing zerg gives him an advantage.

The answer is without equal parameters or conditions, all statistics are meaningless.


If you come up with a way for blizzard to get the information about balance without all of the neccesary inforamtion that i just described, please post it and then write a thesis and publish it please.

Also please use probability theory to explain your ideas or at least talk about the minimum information needed.

Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 22:40:47
October 08 2010 22:40 GMT
#2
I think this post is good enough to not be post in blogs . I agree. Blizzard has a very very hard job
ideadude
Profile Joined April 2010
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:07:42
October 08 2010 23:06 GMT
#3
Great analysis. Thanks.

Couldn't the game company recreate (in a sense) the initial experiment where people were (a) forced to play both sides against (b) random opponents? (When the initial 55% win ratio was discovered.)

If you make 1-in-50 games played match people randomly instead of using the match-making algorithm, you would get (b) above.

If you chose a random subset of these games across all races, wouldn't that be the same as (a)?

You would be able to say a random Black paired up against a random White wins x% of the time. This removes all skill from the equation since you didn't match them based on the calculated skill.

The one thing this experiment would miss is the assumption that equally skilled players are as likely to choose Black vs. White. (Maybe unskilled players are drawn towards White since the game released with the White campaign.)

How would you remove this affect? Maybe you grab randomly from people who have played at least 50 games? Maybe you limit things to people who have played White and Black a certain number of times? Not sure.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-08 23:19:03
October 08 2010 23:17 GMT
#4
They need to focus on getting each race equally played, but how do you overcome a big influence of terrans and protoss due to those races being featured in the single player?

No idea. But I would really try to get them equally played and then collect a lot of different data. How many #1 guys of each race in their leagues, top 500, statistically what race wins most on [insert map], compare with big tournament results etc etc.

Going at this trying to get a smart algorithm in the works is just not how you perfom data mining, you need to look at it in EVERY possible perspective you can think of.

What you suggest here is basic probability and it's miles away from being useful
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
October 08 2010 23:54 GMT
#5
I have had bad luck posting stuff in starcraft 2 general. Usually some moderator comes by and says "This is already being discussed here" or "This should be a blog post" so i usually post here.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Kaptein[konijn]
Profile Joined August 2005
Netherlands110 Posts
October 09 2010 08:44 GMT
#6
I agree, you can't make meaningful balance-related statements based on statistics in the current match making system. People make a lot of invalid implicit or explicit assumptions when they believe they can.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #139
CranKy Ducklings25
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 108
ProTech68
BRAT_OK 56
Trikslyr25
SHIN 14
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 776
Jaedong 623
BeSt 441
Soulkey 355
Larva 308
Mini 270
Zeus 260
Mong 199
Hm[arnc] 186
Dewaltoss 175
[ Show more ]
Rush 128
Killer 65
EffOrt 57
ToSsGirL 56
JulyZerg 53
ZerO 46
scan(afreeca) 44
Sharp 42
sSak 31
Mind 20
actioN 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
[sc1f]eonzerg 3
League of Legends
JimRising 513
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss1173
kRYSTAL_31
x6flipin25
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King143
Other Games
summit1g6874
singsing1236
ceh9828
Pyrionflax207
Sick169
crisheroes162
XaKoH 94
ZerO(Twitch)8
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick548
BasetradeTV50
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH334
• StrangeGG 59
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP7
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV92
League of Legends
• Jankos1812
• Stunt614
Upcoming Events
INu's Battles
52m
Cure vs herO
ByuN vs Rogue
PiGosaur Cup
13h 52m
The PondCast
23h 52m
Kung Fu Cup
1d
Patches Events
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
CrankTV Team League
2 days
OSC
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Escore
2 days
[ Show More ]
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Solar vs Lambo
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-07-27
SCTL 2026 Spring
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Acropolis #5 - TRS
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.