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Stop making ignorants statements FFS!
ITS JUST A DIFERENCE IN PLAYSTILE DOOODS, SC2 is totally balanced in korea cause they have infinite apm and can see the matrix when they play
Yeah sure, just ask Idra, or Cool or anyone.
BW was also Imbalanced when it started (Some even dare to say it was EVEN MORE IMBALANCED)
BW needed like 3-5 small fixes to became balanced and most of them took time BECAUSE THERE WERENT REPLAYS AVAILABLE and they didnt have BW and a 10 YEARS of esports to base their game on.
Only "pros" can say if theres imbalance or NOT
Really? REALLY? Do you think they asked Lee Jae Dong to balance the game? In the begginning theres pretty much only math to balance the game and then THERES A FUCKING BETA WHEN EVERYONE CAN PLAY. Most pros dont have any clue about balance btw. Lim Yo Hwan (dont know who he is? GTFO) said that to balance PvZ on bw Dragoons needed 1+ range.
the game is balanced for the average player. (even some top diamond) Its only in the pro scene where imbalance is really seen
This is wrong on so many levesl i dont even know where to start. It kind of cracks my head.
Nobody should be playing SC for a living, maybe as an experience or something, but those who try to make a living off it deserve to get screwd. It's just a game.
SERIOUSLY? Just wtf are doing on Teamliquid? Go to gamefaqs and discuss the campaign.
And a take on something thats get trown a lot but not properly discussed:
the game is balanced the problem is on the maps
Would a bigger map help me stop drops on late game ZvT? Cause i cant see a bigger map giving my Ultras or Broodlords anti air. Would a bigger map help me attack the invisible svcs hidden on a Thor? Woulda bigger map make my Queens as useful late game as a Mule or Chronoboost?
Every time a P takes an expa he has more CBoost, everytime a Z takes an expa what does he get?
Also, an as sidenote, BIGGER MAPS would make it pretty much impossible for Z to scout on ZvT. No drone would be able to get inside the main before the wallin, and overlords wont be able to get there on time without 5+ marines patrolling the borders.
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My take on the issue?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151692
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149
The 2 best threads made about the subject. Theres an inherent DESIGN FLAW. No particular buff or nerf to ANY Z unit will fix the MU.
Please read the early interviews to the SC2 development team. They had no idea what to do with zerg. The only "real" new unit is the baneling and its a smart way to replace the Lurker, kudos to that.
Broodlord = Guardian (wich btw should morph from the mutas imo from a utility point of view but i think it wouldnt be fair)
Infestor = Slower Queen and ironically it would be better with spawn broodling than with NP.
Roach: An hydra that doesnt hit air, fuck yeah.
Queen: LOL
  
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I do think only high level players can really comment on balance because lower level players are not losing because of any imbalance, they are losing because they were not macro/mircoing anywhere near where they should be. I wont restrict balance talk to only pros, but you do need to have solid fundamentals before balance comes into play
Would bigger maps help late game drops ZvT, yes. It gives you more time to scout and react to the drop and get your units into position.
What to zerg get for expanding, Much higher unit production capabilities.
If you are just making broodlords or ultralisks you deserve to lose just as much as any protoss that only makes collosi
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I personally think Blizzard released the game without it being completely done. They've been too busy thinking of cool stuff rather than how to make it into a competetive game. The Zerg issues will probably be answered in HotS, let's hope it won't be too late by then :/
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I, like you (and every other Z player here, I'm sure), am also unhappy with the state of Zerg balance. You make some decent points, but you also make some questionable ones, however.
Here's the two that stand out to me:
Would a bigger map help me stop drops on late game ZvT? Cause i cant see a bigger map giving my Ultras or Broodlords anti air. Would a bigger map help me attack the invisible svcs hidden on a Thor? Woulda bigger map make my Queens as useful late game as a Mule or Chronoboost?
The map design point is a very valid one, I feel. Of course it's not the only issue at play here, but in the rare situations on blizzard maps where I can actually get a decent surround/concave on Terran/Protoss units, my army stands a much better chance and doesn't tend to leave me feeling completely cheated.
It's not just about the size of the map, but the terrain features and the spacing and flow of the map.
Also,
Every time a P takes an expa he has more CBoost, everytime a Z takes an expa what does he get?
Every time a Z takes an expansion he get's more opportunities for larva-inject, another queen-producing structure, more larva and another building from which to execute hatchery upgrades (if simultaneous upgrades are beneficial in that situation).
I don't think the extra chronoboost, while an immensely effective ability, directly negates the effects of a zerg expansion.
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yeah man i completly agree. Unfortunatly its out of our hands. If you want balance thats what BW is here for.
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While I don't agree with many of your points and many of your arguments,
yeah, its imbalanced.
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On September 24 2010 05:13 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
I do think only high level players can really comment on balance because lower level players are not losing because of any imbalance, they are losing because they were not macro/mircoing anywhere near where they should be. I wont restrict balance talk to only pros, but you do need to have solid fundamentals before balance comes into play
Would bigger maps help late game drops ZvT, yes. It gives you more time to scout and react to the drop and get your units into position.
What to zerg get for expanding, Much higher unit production capabilities.
If you are just making broodlords or ultralisks you deserve to lose just as much as any protoss that only makes collosi
What the hell? Imbalance in the game will be imbalance in the game. Doesn't matter where you are skillwise. Some races might be easier to play then others, but an inherent flaw in the balance will exist for all skill levels IF THE GAME IS IN FACT imbalanced. These imbalances might be covered up by the aforementioned mechanical differences that make certain races easier or harder to play but that doesnt stop them from existing throughout the entire game.
If 1 race only needs to E(or C)--click 4 times in 200 seconds (*however many bases) then that is an easier mechanic then V-click every 20 seconds (*however many bases) right? Fundamentally, certain races are harder to play which is a type of imbalance in itself.
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On September 24 2010 05:26 Foreplay wrote:
yeah man i completly agree. Unfortunatly its out of our hands. If you want balance thats what BW is here for.
THIS
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On September 24 2010 05:17 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +Every time a P takes an expa he has more CBoost, everytime a Z takes an expa what does he get? Every time a Z takes an expansion he get's more opportunities for larva-inject, another queen-producing structure, more larva and another building from which to execute hatchery upgrades (if simultaneous upgrades are beneficial in that situation). I don't think the extra chronoboost, while an immensely effective ability, directly negates the effects of a zerg expansion.
In late game , lots of the time both armies will be to be at 200/200 or petty much maxed out till they clash. Z will have lots of larva waiting to make another round of army, and the 3 "standard" queens youll have by then can more than take care of your 4-5 hatches (unless you perfectly spawn larva everytime) Also most zergs will make an additional hatch after taking a their third or even their nat.
Now this gets kind of even with P who can chronoboost their units which makes it even in terms of pure "mass" of units but the "key units" hell be able to pump faster.
But what about T? Remember that after all late game is a fight to starve the opponent, how the fuck do you starve a terran with 8 mules on a gold expo. =/
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Show nested quote +the game is balanced for the average player. (even some top diamond) Its only in the pro scene where imbalance is really seen This is wrong on so many levesl i dont even know where to start. It kind of cracks my head.
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Oh btw im not saying that bigger or different maps wont help, im saying that they dont fix a lot of the core issues. Also, i think depending on bigger or smaller maps (up to a point obviosly, blood bath sucks) will eventualy limit the gameplay.
Destination was quite different than most maps at the time and still it was awesome and balanced.
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On September 24 2010 05:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +the game is balanced for the average player. (even some top diamond) Its only in the pro scene where imbalance is really seen This is wrong on so many levesl i dont even know where to start. It kind of cracks my head. Actually, it is. The AMM system is designed to make people go 50% so it is "balanced" at all levels in that sense. Obviously, that can't happen at the pro end of the spectrum since you only have good players, but still! Ultimately, it doesn't make sense to talk about balance when players are making glaring gameplay mistakes.
But a player that makes 6 glaring mistakes shouldnt beat one that made only 2. Also, it shouldnt be harder for one player (race) to not make a mistake that for the other one. Obviously to a point, in BW there were key moments when a mistake could be more fatal for a Z than for T like when the zerg needed to take his third.
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My thoughts additions about the same quotes (Writer is right about every single word he said):
ITS JUST A DIFERENCE IN PLAYSTILE DOOODS, SC2 is totally balanced in korea cause they have infinite apm and can see the matrix when they play
Yeah sure, just ask Idra, or Cool or anyone (This).
BW was also Imbalanced when it started (Some even dare to say it was EVEN MORE IMBALANCED)
BW needed like 3-5 small fixes to became balanced and most of them took time BECAUSE THERE WERENT REPLAYS AVAILABLE and they didnt have BW and a 10 YEARS of esports to base their game on (again this)
Only "pros" can say if theres imbalance or NOT
Really? REALLY? Do you think they asked Lee Jae Dong to balance the game? In the begginning theres pretty much only math to balance the game and then THERES A FUCKING BETA WHEN EVERYONE CAN PLAY. Most pros dont have any clue about balance btw. Lim Yo Hwan (dont know who he is? GTFO) said that to balance PvZ on bw Dragoons needed 1+ range.
My additions: Why do you sir think that Cool, Zenio and July are seriously considering to switch to Terran?
the game is balanced for the average player. (even some top diamond) Its only in the pro scene where imbalance is really seen
This is wrong on so many levesl i dont even know where to start. It kind of cracks my head.
My additions: Even in practice league, there are no Zergs. Just NO Zergs. Only T and P.
Nobody should be playing SC for a living, maybe as an experience or something, but those who try to make a living off it deserve to get screwd. It's just a game.
SERIOUSLY? Just wtf are doing on Teamliquid? Go to gamefaqs and discuss the campaign. (This)
And a take on something thats get trown a lot but not properly discussed:
the game is balanced the problem is on the maps
Would a bigger map help me stop drops on late game ZvT? Cause i cant see a bigger map giving my Ultras or Broodlords anti air. Would a bigger map help me attack the invisible svcs hidden on a Thor? Woulda bigger map make my Queens as useful late game as a Mule or Chronoboost?
Every time a P takes an expa he has more CBoost, everytime a Z takes an expa what does he get?
My addition:
P gets more chronoboost with every single expo
T gets more scans with every single expo
Z gets nothing.
Also, an as sidenote, BIGGER MAPS would make it pretty much impossible for Z to scout on ZvT. No drone would be able to get inside the main before the wallin, and overlords wont be able to get there on time without 5+ marines patrolling the borders.
My additions: Bigger maps MY ASS !!!
----
My take on the issue?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151692
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149
The 2 best threads made about the subject. Theres an inherent DESIGN FLAW. No particular buff or nerf to ANY Z unit will fix the MU.
Please read the early interviews to the SC2 development team. They had no idea what to do with zerg. The only "real" new unit is the baneling and its a smart way to replace the Lurker, kudos to that.
Broodlord = Guardian (wich btw should morph from the mutas imo from a utility point of view but i think it wouldnt be fair)
Infestor = Slower Queen and ironically it would be better with spawn broodling than with NP.
My additions: NP will be good ONLY when it's infinite time.
Roach: An hydra that doesnt hit air, fuck yeah.
My addition: And it takes 2 supplies? LOL !
Queen: LOL.
My addition: ROFLMAO!
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you too Plexa? D: we all know AMM means we get 50% winrate. What grates on me though is the possibility that I am winning half my games against worse players than I would be if things were better balanced. What grates on me is that I am in a lower league than I might otherwise be. Yeah I could league up by getting better, but the necessary improvement is greater than it would have to be otherwise.
And why can't we talk about balance when I am making errors? AMM matches me up against other people making errors, and thanks to imbalance I would say I am matched up against people that make even more errors than I do.
It's hard to talk about balance at scrub level thanks to AMM, but AMM is not a reason to say it isn't there. If something helps T or P at higher levels, why wouldn't it do so at lower levels, if not even more so? Larva inject being more punishing to miss than MULEs is going to have even more of an effect at scrubbier levels, getting screwed by difficulty scouting is going to matter even more when players have a harder time multitasking to scout in the first place etc etc.
We're really expected to see top pros deserting Z (cool being the latest) and feel OK about it because AMM means we can win half the time against inferior players?
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On September 24 2010 05:03 skindzer wrote:Really? REALLY? Do you think they asked Lee Jae Dong to balance the game? In the begginning theres pretty much only math to balance the game and then THERES A FUCKING BETA WHEN EVERYONE CAN PLAY. Most pros dont have any clue about balance btw. Lim Yo Hwan (dont know who he is? GTFO) said that to balance PvZ on bw Dragoons needed 1+ range.
I can't agree with this enough.
People who say "you're not diamond, balance doesn't affect you" are just clearly retarded.
I've seen mods say this and then everyone starts repeating it mindlessly and sounding totally dumb.
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On September 24 2010 05:50 Plexa wrote:
Ultimately, it doesn't make sense to talk about balance when players are making glaring gameplay mistakes.
This I agree on.
But there is so much more to expand when it comes to balance and lower-level play.
Not playing optimally IS a reason why you are not winning, instead of balance.
Disregarding the horrible image of the strategy forum of people who complain without even understanding how to play comes deeper questions though. How do you view balance? If one race is proven easier to execute and play, even at a lower level, that concept itself seems pretty unbalanced to me.
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On September 24 2010 06:00 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 05:03 skindzer wrote:Only "pros" can say if theres imbalance or NOT Really? REALLY? Do you think they asked Lee Jae Dong to balance the game? In the begginning theres pretty much only math to balance the game and then THERES A FUCKING BETA WHEN EVERYONE CAN PLAY. Most pros dont have any clue about balance btw. Lim Yo Hwan (dont know who he is? GTFO) said that to balance PvZ on bw Dragoons needed 1+ range. I can't agree with this enough. People who say "you're not diamond, balance doesn't affect you" are just clearly retarded. I've seen mods say this and then everyone starts repeating it mindlessly and sounding totally dumb.
It isn't that it doesn't affect the game, it's that if you didn't play like shit you'd win the games you're losing without a balance change.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:00 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 05:03 skindzer wrote:Only "pros" can say if theres imbalance or NOT Really? REALLY? Do you think they asked Lee Jae Dong to balance the game? In the begginning theres pretty much only math to balance the game and then THERES A FUCKING BETA WHEN EVERYONE CAN PLAY. Most pros dont have any clue about balance btw. Lim Yo Hwan (dont know who he is? GTFO) said that to balance PvZ on bw Dragoons needed 1+ range. I can't agree with this enough. People who say "you're not diamond, balance doesn't affect you" are just clearly retarded. I've seen mods say this and then everyone starts repeating it mindlessly and sounding totally dumb. On September 24 2010 05:59 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
you too Plexa? D: we all know AMM means we get 50% winrate. What grates on me though is the possibility that I am winning half my games against worse players than I would be if things were better balanced. What grates on me is that I am in a lower league than I might otherwise be. Yeah I could league up by getting better, but the necessary improvement is greater than it would have to be otherwise.
And why can't we talk about balance when I am making errors? AMM matches me up against other people making errors, and thanks to imbalance I would say I am matched up against people that make even more errors than I do.
It's hard to talk about balance at scrub level thanks to AMM, but AMM is not a reason to say it isn't there. If something helps T or P at higher levels, why wouldn't it do so at lower levels, if not even more so? Larva inject being more punishing to miss than MULEs is going to have even more of an effect at scrubbier levels, getting screwed by difficulty scouting is going to matter even more when players have a harder time multitasking to scout in the first place etc etc.
We're really expected to see top pros deserting Z (cool being the latest) and feel OK about it because AMM means we can win half the time against inferior players?
It doesn't mean you can't make comments about balanced based on observations from top level play. Citing example of your own play, for example, is a poor way to demonstrate imbalance. Morrow was 100% right when he said 90% of your whining Zerg players should just quit whining and skill up because that's where the issues with their play are. Doesn't mean the game isn't imbalanced, doesn't mean they can't comment on balance - but the last thing they should be doing is blaming their losses on imbalances.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
Maybe you should come back to bw? n_n
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On September 24 2010 06:04 Artifice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:00 SCC-Faust wrote:On September 24 2010 05:03 skindzer wrote:Only "pros" can say if theres imbalance or NOT Really? REALLY? Do you think they asked Lee Jae Dong to balance the game? In the begginning theres pretty much only math to balance the game and then THERES A FUCKING BETA WHEN EVERYONE CAN PLAY. Most pros dont have any clue about balance btw. Lim Yo Hwan (dont know who he is? GTFO) said that to balance PvZ on bw Dragoons needed 1+ range. I can't agree with this enough. People who say "you're not diamond, balance doesn't affect you" are just clearly retarded. I've seen mods say this and then everyone starts repeating it mindlessly and sounding totally dumb. It isn't that it doesn't affect the game, it's that if you didn't play like shit you'd win the games you're losing without a balance change.
but my opponent can get away with playing like shit, or at least to a greater degree than I can. I don't think we should be able to dismiss balance concerns by saying "play better". You could say the same damn thing to people playing other races then we're back at square one.
Yes there is room for improvement in my play, but why is it OK to point that out as a way to help my non mirror matchups when the other race can be told the same thing?
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EPT
