• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:47
CEST 00:47
KST 07:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed18Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Who will win EWC 2025? Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Soulkey Muta Micro Map? BW General Discussion [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 688 users

Banelings :(

Blogs > ymir233
Post a Reply
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
September 14 2010 02:24 GMT
#1
The more I play SC2, the more I wish that banelings had inherent burrow.

I mean, the reason that lurkers were so awesome and viable and constantly useful was not only area damage (banelings) but also the element of SURPRIZE, especially hold-lurker. I never really understood why more pro players didn't abuse hold-lurker more (seriously, hide those damn things EVERYWHERE, surprise them multiple times per game, etc.; they have to scan anyways, why not milk the lurkers for all they're worth?), but I guess you can't spare the APM to a-move or something.

But annnnnyways, the element of surprise is REALLY awesome for stuff like banelings (2 banelings == gg marines no re ), but it's just really frustrating to be like "YES I HAVE...stuffs that explode once they've slowly crawled over". I mean, yes, pure baneling is bad, ling/muta/bling is good, yada yada, but I want something I can SURPRISE people with - not with an allin baneling bust, not with a delayed super baneling bust, not with a late-game 60 million baneling lolololol base wreck, but something like constant pressure and map control with hidden banelings. And even with optimal almost-lair => bling nest and burrow timings, I just feel rather....exposed.

The reason I don't like resorting to muta/bling is the fact that it feels too much like muta/ling in BW - it's like meatshield into death by lings. It's more of the "Oh shit I don't have enough MMM in a ball" moment than a "Oh shit, I just got duped" moment.

Yes, I'm whining about SC2. But a guy can dream . It's just that banelings could be so much cooler if they could be produced for a viable midgame map control unit without having all these BOs that are like "allin == if rax-fact wall-off => gg out".

(Yes, I ignored banshees for this discussion. Sue me. Too lazy to think about stuff like wall-off into fast tech on 1 base.)

***
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
September 14 2010 02:29 GMT
#2
thats another odd thing. even tho scans werent used for muling it seemed that u could pressure terran into having to save energy while in SC2 they always have scan even while muling.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
gamecrazy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States421 Posts
September 14 2010 02:29 GMT
#3
The primary value of lurkers didn't lie in surprise/hold lurker, but simply being able to dish out the hurt on mnm. Is there really a problem with banelings that require them to burrow? How would still banelings encourage more map control than ones that are exploding terran walls and mm balls upfront? Sure.. terran gets one raven and the inherent burrow is quite worthless.
Tazza
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Korea (South)1678 Posts
September 14 2010 02:37 GMT
#4
Well the reason you didn't stop lurker much was that it only worked until vessels came out and even then, a lot of terran players had sense to scan places where there would likely be lurkers. And usually, the timings were different. See, if terrans did a mm push without a vessel, it would be at a time where there were mutaling. When terran pushed out later with a vessel, they had mm and about 3 tanks. Against toss, a few amount of lurkers don't do signifiant damage and observers come out pretty fast
vOddy
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden402 Posts
September 14 2010 03:01 GMT
#5
I never really understood why more pro players didn't abuse hold-lurker more (seriously, hide those damn things EVERYWHERE, surprise them multiple times per game, etc.; they have to scan anyways, why not milk the lurkers for all they're worth?), but I guess you can't spare the APM to a-move or something.


Once science vessels come out, you really can't afford to have lurkers spread out everywhere. They will be seen, and you have to defend against the big push with lurkers under dark swarm until you can break out, preferably with ultralisks.
"You generate awesomeness. It just flows from you."
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24674 Posts
September 14 2010 03:27 GMT
#6
You can still burrow them after researching... I think the fact that you can't burrow automatically makes for a BETTER surprise when you actually do it!

Same thing with bw early game vZ actually...
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Gogleion
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States534 Posts
September 14 2010 03:34 GMT
#7
Yeah vOddy pretty much hits the nail on the head. If you do a lurker opening in bw, then hold lurkers are amazing. However most of the time the zerg is busy securing a third expansion, so the initial lurkers were more for defense so the position wouldn't allow for offensive hold lurkers.

The trick with getting banelings to do a ton of damage is to get them to the target without getting exploded. But even if they die, they still draw fire away from other key units like infestors or overseers. This can help you greatly.

Muta/bling is a very good unit composition zvt on paper. I'm only low diamond, and it works well for me, but I haven't seen any pros use it so I'm not going to comment on its merits.

Are you getting +1 Carapace upgrades early on with your bling openings? It helps them get a lot closer to the mmm ball without dying.
EffOrt. That is all.
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
September 14 2010 20:54 GMT
#8
On September 14 2010 12:34 Gogleion wrote:
Are you getting +1 Carapace upgrades early on with your bling openings? It helps them get a lot closer to the mmm ball without dying.


Yeah, that would be great, thanks

And that was pretty dumb of me to not think about the standard vessel into push before hive. But as for map control, it'd still be pretty good midgame-ish to have stationary hidden units so that your opponent can't go places without needing to be extra careful.

I do like your suggestion though, micronesia, about the whole burrow thing - it's like games in BW ZvP where your opponent just has no idea of what's coming, especially if they tried to do a gateway-first opening.

Is muta/bling the only successful non-allin bling-based build though?
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
polgas
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1752 Posts
September 14 2010 21:11 GMT
#9
Burrowed baneling is more the BW spider mine with no auto-attack. Setting up like this would be slow though, considering most matches I saw finishes quite fast.
Leee Jaee Doong
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 13m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
CosmosSc2 110
JuggernautJason84
ProTech65
Ketroc 51
Nina 16
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 192
Aegong 43
Shine 38
yabsab 22
Dota 2
monkeys_forever642
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Grubby5195
Counter-Strike
fl0m2492
Other Games
tarik_tv23738
summit1g12845
ViBE185
Skadoodle143
Trikslyr84
ForJumy 41
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2772
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 71
• RyuSc2 66
• musti20045 42
• davetesta26
• Kozan
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 72
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22563
Other Games
• imaqtpie2019
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
11h 13m
Online Event
17h 13m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
19h 13m
Esports World Cup
2 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
3 days
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
Championship of Russia 2025
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.