• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:17
CET 15:17
KST 23:17
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down20ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier6Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League97
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book SC2 Power Rank: epic29 Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.17 How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers [G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles Mutation # 548 Shining Bright Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War Mathematicians needed to calc "Low Econ Epicness" SCHNAIL now supports Remastered Ziemie's Starcraft 1 Prequel Campaign
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Grand Finals 2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Deus Ex 3!? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Armies of Exigo - YesYes?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8310 users

Math Puzzle #3

Blogs > mieda
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 22:32:52
September 10 2010 20:12 GMT
#1
Let f,g be polynomials with rational coefficients. Suppose f(Q) = g(Q) (i.e. the sets of values of f and g on the rationals are the same). Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.

Remark. It generalizes to number fields with real embeddings.

Note that the converse is trivial.

Solution

The idea is that (mod the full details) there's a fixed discrete subgroup L of Q such that for any integer x, the rational solutions, viewed in y, of g(y) = f(x) are all in L. To extract the behavior of y as x varies, and compare the coefficients at the same time, i.e. the growth rates, you can consider expressions of the form g(y') - g(y) = f(x+1) - f(x) where y' is the corresponding rational number such that g(y') = f(x+1). By mean value theorem (don't quite need this, since f,g are polynomials so one can potentially do all the computations by algebra) the expression extracts out y' - y in terms of f'(x) and g'(y) roughly, and this gives a good comparison of y as x varies. This is the idea, and I do some computations to show that this works.

Also, simple valuation calculations (plug in this, plug in that rational number, compare the p-adic valuations) don't really seem to get anywhere, as I give plenty of counter examples and point out the problems to the claims of one of the posters below.

*
Assault_1
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1950 Posts
September 10 2010 20:34 GMT
#2
so whats the question?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:43 GMT
#3
On September 11 2010 05:34 Assault_1 wrote:
so whats the question?


Proving it.
Piege
Profile Joined October 2009
United Kingdom128 Posts
September 10 2010 20:52 GMT
#4
Would a non-math major/non-math enthusiast be able to solve this?
Never_V_ -> Fin
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:53 GMT
#5
the sets f(Q) and g(Q) are not counting multiplicity right?
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:54 GMT
#6
On September 11 2010 05:52 Piege wrote:
Would a non-math major/non-math enthusiast be able to solve this?


I don't know the solution yet but I suspect the answer to your question is no.
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 20:56:54
September 10 2010 20:55 GMT
#7
On September 11 2010 05:53 category wrote:
the sets f(Q) and g(Q) are not counting multiplicity right?


They're just sets, not really any structures on them (for ex. ramifications). For example for the functio f(x) = x^2 the set f(Q) is just the set of all squares of rational numbers. We don't care that f(x) = 0 ramifies (and elsewhere unramifies). It's just a naive set.

I wonder if that's what you meant. So yes, I think we're not counting multiplicities here, whatever you mean by that in this context. f(Q) = {y : y = f(a) for some rational a}.
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:59 GMT
#8
lol. I don't know about ramifications. i just meant, eg in the f(x^2) case, does it matter that 1 is obtained twice? but it sounds like no.

i guess for the functions f=x^2 and g=x^4, f(Q) will be larger than g(Q), because some rationals are the square of another rational but are not a fourth power?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:01:28
September 10 2010 21:00 GMT
#9
On September 11 2010 05:59 category wrote:
lol. I don't know about ramifications. i just meant, eg in the f(x^2) case, does it matter that 1 is obtained twice? but it sounds like no.


Right, just count it once. So for example {1,1} = {1}.

i guess for the functions f=x^2 and g=x^4, f(Q) will be larger than g(Q), because some rationals are the square of another rational but are not a fourth power?


That's right.
Assault_1
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1950 Posts
September 10 2010 21:04 GMT
#10
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:12:02
September 10 2010 21:06 GMT
#11
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


any field containing the rationals. It really doesn't matter, since the condition is only imposed on f(Q) and g(Q). You don't need to "see" bigger fields containing the rationals. Any such field is infinite anyway, so if the condition f(x) = g(ax + b) holds for evaluating x on all rationals then it's identical as polynomials (in the ring Q[x]) so evaluation of x on any field containing Q likewise.
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 21:09 GMT
#12
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


i would say, think of it as being the rationals.

but yeah, i am finding this quite hard, though I find the result very interesting.
sputnik.theory
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Poland449 Posts
September 10 2010 21:16 GMT
#13
I've noticed that threads like this pop up during the school year...
ITT: TL does your math homework for you
“On the night of the murder I was at home, asleep. The characters in my dream can vouch for me.”
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 21:16 GMT
#14
On September 11 2010 06:16 sputnik.theory wrote:
I've noticed that threads like this pop up during the school year...
ITT: TL does your math homework for you


Rest assured, I've already solved this. It's not a homework.
Seth_
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Belgium184 Posts
September 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#15
May I (a non-math major) ask for an example of an f(x) and g(x) polynomial for which this is true.
Fly[DCT]
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada38 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:25:16
September 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#16
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


I am guessing the real or complex is fine. Once we can prove this for the real it automatically implies that it's also true for the complex.

On September 11 2010 06:18 Seth_ wrote:
May I (a non-math major) ask for an example of an f(x) and g(x) polynomial for which this is true.


Sure. f(x) = x^2. g(x) = (2x)^2.
lalalalala
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States557 Posts
September 10 2010 21:25 GMT
#17
f(Q) clearly equals g(Q) if f(x)=g(ax+b)

Thus WLOG f and g have integer coefficients that are relatively prime and 0 as their constant terms.

Suppose f(x)=a_nx^n+...a_1*x.

Suppose g(x)=b_nx^n+...+b_1*x.

Let p^r be a prime power dividing a_1 but not b_1, if such a prime power exists. Then f(x) will always be divisible by p either less than or equal to 0 times or more than r times, while g(p) is divisible by p at least once and at most r times.

So this means that f(Q)=g(Q) then a_1= plus/minus b_1

One can continue inductively through all the coefficients
starleague.mit.edu
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States557 Posts
September 10 2010 21:26 GMT
#18
Or something like that... don't have time to check everything but should be close
starleague.mit.edu
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:48:28
September 10 2010 21:29 GMT
#19
On September 11 2010 06:25 Muirhead wrote:
f(Q) clearly equals g(Q) if f(x)=g(ax+b)

Thus WLOG f and g have integer coefficients that are relatively prime and 0 as their constant terms.

Suppose f(x)=a_nx^n+...a_1*x.

Suppose g(x)=b_nx^n+...+b_1*x.

Let p^r be a prime power dividing a_1 but not b_1, if such a prime power exists. Then f(x) will always be divisible by p either less than or equal to 0 times or more than r times, while g(p) is divisible by p at least once and at most r times.

So this means that f(Q)=g(Q) then a_1= plus/minus b_1

One can continue inductively through all the coefficients


Need a lot more details, and I'm not convinced of this argument either. You're saying WLOG assume 0 as their constant terms? And then you're assuming deg f = deg g (this is true, but you didn't mention how to prove this at all). And then there's the next paragraph which doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Enjoy your Friday anyway!
naptiem
Profile Joined July 2009
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:33:06
September 10 2010 21:29 GMT
#20
Here's an attempt for any field, F:

+ Show Spoiler +

Since f(F)=g(F), g(F) includes f(x) and there must be an element s of F where g(s)=f(x).

Rewrite s in the form ax+b for some a,b in F:

If x = 0, let b = s and a be any number in F.
Then ax+b = a 0 + s = s.

If x is not 0, let a = x^-1, the multiplicative inverse of x in F, and b = s - 1.
Then ax+b = (x^-1) x + (s - 1) = 1 + (s - 1) = s.

In both cases, ax+b = s and g(ax+b) = g(s) = f(x).


Edit: Never mind, I think I misread the problem.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
23:00
King of the Hill #266
EmpressLilyy29
Liquipedia
OSC
21:00
OSC 5000
WardiTV759
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ByuN 651
IndyStarCraft 139
SHIN 70
mcanning 62
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 2155
Shuttle 1524
EffOrt 1038
Horang2 1030
BeSt 635
Soulkey 562
Soma 384
Mini 370
firebathero 220
hero 198
[ Show more ]
Zeus 123
Last 114
Mind 112
Snow 85
sorry 82
Hyun 78
Pusan 70
Barracks 40
ToSsGirL 40
Classic 33
Bishop 30
LancerX 30
910 24
Noble 23
soO 22
Trap 21
Free 16
yabsab 14
Rock 13
Sacsri 10
Icarus 5
Dota 2
Gorgc13089
syndereN1
Other Games
singsing2141
B2W.Neo1987
Liquid`RaSZi1245
Mlord485
DeMusliM463
Pyrionflax276
XaKoH 267
mouzStarbuck231
Livibee190
KnowMe94
QueenE39
RotterdaM33
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL1511
Other Games
ComeBackTV 397
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 10
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 19
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2400
• WagamamaTV626
Upcoming Events
Yamato Cup
43m
IPSL
2h 43m
Artosis vs RiceHat
Kyrie vs Sony
Map Test Tournament
8h 43m
WardiTV Weekly
21h 43m
Ultimate Battle
21h 43m
Rush vs BeSt
Replay Cast
1d 8h
Rogue vs Classic
Patches Events
1d 22h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
KCM Race Survival
3 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
IPSL
6 days
WorsT vs nOmaD
Dewalt vs andersOn
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-30
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

1xBet Invitational
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.