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On September 05 2010 12:40 tyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 12:24 awu25 wrote:
not everyone likes 20 min+ games
everytime i watch a BW replay on youtube i skip the first 5-10 minutes cause it's just a video of players expanding While this is somewhat true, it's pretty risky :p Example (skip to 7:00 for the actual game) : + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwkYpTTkGcc
One of my favorites games of 2009 :D
i love these types of games just because the sheer amount of micro and the commentators' reactions
don't get me wrong, i still love other games that are longer, but most of them don't get interesting until the mid game, when units start to clash or there's some harassment with reavers or mutas
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On September 05 2010 11:40 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:25 SubtleArt wrote:
I really didn't like any of the games. If we saw similar games in BW they'd all be called boring or 1 sided. The only thing I was mildly impressed by was Idra's defense in game 1. Every game was so short though. If Sc2 is gonna succeed, Blizzard has to offer players either a greater advantage on defense or something to that nature to allow players to fast expand. That, or we have to work out macro builds, cause games that all end in under 13 minutes is pretty lame + Show Spoiler [GSL spoilers] +have to agree with this, 2nd game was just kinda like the T trying to pull off a fancy and ended up not doing any real damage and just losing due to sticking to medivac drops. first game i was impressed with idra's defense because he managed to predict the reapers and all the subsequent drops, as well as minimizing any damage.
and yes, i'm kinda sick of watching every game starting off with 1 base play. where are all the 14cc or whatever builds?!
I'm sure the game quality will improve as the tournament progresses. RO64 is like weeding out all of the cheesy/gimmicky players. Once it gets to RO16, I'm sure the games will be great.
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On September 05 2010 13:00 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:40 konadora wrote:On September 05 2010 11:25 SubtleArt wrote:
I really didn't like any of the games. If we saw similar games in BW they'd all be called boring or 1 sided. The only thing I was mildly impressed by was Idra's defense in game 1. Every game was so short though. If Sc2 is gonna succeed, Blizzard has to offer players either a greater advantage on defense or something to that nature to allow players to fast expand. That, or we have to work out macro builds, cause games that all end in under 13 minutes is pretty lame + Show Spoiler [GSL spoilers] +have to agree with this, 2nd game was just kinda like the T trying to pull off a fancy and ended up not doing any real damage and just losing due to sticking to medivac drops. first game i was impressed with idra's defense because he managed to predict the reapers and all the subsequent drops, as well as minimizing any damage.
and yes, i'm kinda sick of watching every game starting off with 1 base play. where are all the 14cc or whatever builds?! I'm sure the game quality will improve as the tournament progresses. RO64 is like weeding out all of the cheesy/gimmicky players. Once it gets to RO16, I'm sure the games will be great.
I think its the game itself. It adheres so much to 1 base play, and without defenders advantage we're stopped from doing a wide variety of openings simply cause we need to have more stuff than the opponent. This is particularly bad in PvP with warpgates and pylons, essentially taking out the distance factor. When one player expands, the other just has an extra production facility and cranks out more stuff, hence why PvP is always 1 base for like 10 minutes. I have yet to read or work out any effective way to safely expand as Protoss.
Add to that a map pool with piss poor designs, gimmicky backdoor entrances that favor 1 base plays even more, and really small maps and you get what happened today.
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On September 05 2010 13:00 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:40 konadora wrote:On September 05 2010 11:25 SubtleArt wrote:
I really didn't like any of the games. If we saw similar games in BW they'd all be called boring or 1 sided. The only thing I was mildly impressed by was Idra's defense in game 1. Every game was so short though. If Sc2 is gonna succeed, Blizzard has to offer players either a greater advantage on defense or something to that nature to allow players to fast expand. That, or we have to work out macro builds, cause games that all end in under 13 minutes is pretty lame + Show Spoiler [GSL spoilers] +have to agree with this, 2nd game was just kinda like the T trying to pull off a fancy and ended up not doing any real damage and just losing due to sticking to medivac drops. first game i was impressed with idra's defense because he managed to predict the reapers and all the subsequent drops, as well as minimizing any damage.
and yes, i'm kinda sick of watching every game starting off with 1 base play. where are all the 14cc or whatever builds?! I'm sure the game quality will improve as the tournament progresses. RO64 is like weeding out all of the cheesy/gimmicky players. Once it gets to RO16, I'm sure the games will be great.
We're gonna get better games even in the ro64 once we get some more closely seeded players. These games were basically 1 vs 16 and 2 vs 15 for the A group. Rarely in any sport are such matches close or interesting. Gom should have opened with some 8 vs 9 games.
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I don't have a problem with her voice, isn't that the same girl who commentates BW? I thought it was, but I could be wrong =/
I thought the entire thing was pretty well run and professional. I tried watching the English stream for a while but eventually got bored and switched back to the Korean one, even though I can only understand like 20% of it. It just doesn't feel right watching SC in English. Old habits die hard...
The games weren't great, but it's only the ro64 so you can't expect too much. It's like Flash or JD roflstomping B-teamers in the OSL prelims, obviously the matches are going to be largely one-sided and not very exciting.
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On September 05 2010 12:17 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:40 konadora wrote:On September 05 2010 11:25 SubtleArt wrote:
I really didn't like any of the games. If we saw similar games in BW they'd all be called boring or 1 sided. The only thing I was mildly impressed by was Idra's defense in game 1. Every game was so short though. If Sc2 is gonna succeed, Blizzard has to offer players either a greater advantage on defense or something to that nature to allow players to fast expand. That, or we have to work out macro builds, cause games that all end in under 13 minutes is pretty lame and yes, i'm kinda sick of watching every game starting off with 1 base play. where are all the 14cc or whatever builds?! ...For now everything except Z is pretty much one base play. I personally don't like it too much either.
"For now". The game's new. Despite everything we learned from SC:BW about strategy games, 1-base is still the "natural" way to approach a game. Make some stuff -> attack is a simple strategy, and (when you boil it all down) what you need to do.
Furthermore, despite knowing that we "need to harass", so far most of the harass I've seen is capability-based, rather than plan-based or really a strategy. By this I mean that we harass with reapers because... reapers are awesome for harass. Yes, many of the higher-level players are incorporating this into builds and strategic planning, but overall the game hasn't developed far enough for there to be true alternatives within the game.
What I'm getting at is that the game isn't really truly known yet. Timings haven't been subjected to years of innovation and trial; basic builds are in place (maybe) but we haven't had time yet for "revolutions" to happen. We've also not yet had time for star players to really develop, none of the following (to my knowledge):
1) The Boxer to radically change our view of how the game "should" be played. You would think that this would only have to be done for RTS once... but the majority of players are still shockingly non-innovative, as far as I've seen, and none have the pop-star charisma of The Emperor.
2) The cheesy bastards - think Nal_rA - who force innovation and improvement by exploiting holes in existing builds.
3) The "oov" to start finding the safe timings and tempos (pardon the chess term) for expanding/macro-based play.
4) Independent mapmakers to make ridiculous/awesome maps. And Blizzard seems to be discouraging this one, if only by accident.
5) Two or three years of play to really truly develop a metagame. Even with all the play in the beta, we've been fussing with this for less than a year. Blizzard still is looking at fairly basic patching, which keeps twitching the builds. I am inclined to think that part of BW's ultimate success, survival, and triumph as the flagbearer of esports was Blizzard's apparently neglectful attitude towards patching - the huge delay (two years) between balancing patches 1.05 and 1.08. Those two years, where the game was just left alone, allowed the development of a real game, the changes from Freemura's game to Boxer's - because the game was static. It was what it was. Right now, we're less than two months after release, and largely still living on hype.
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On September 05 2010 11:40 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:25 SubtleArt wrote:
I really didn't like any of the games. If we saw similar games in BW they'd all be called boring or 1 sided. The only thing I was mildly impressed by was Idra's defense in game 1. Every game was so short though. If Sc2 is gonna succeed, Blizzard has to offer players either a greater advantage on defense or something to that nature to allow players to fast expand. That, or we have to work out macro builds, cause games that all end in under 13 minutes is pretty lame + Show Spoiler [GSL spoilers] +have to agree with this, 2nd game was just kinda like the T trying to pull off a fancy and ended up not doing any real damage and just losing due to sticking to medivac drops. first game i was impressed with idra's defense because he managed to predict the reapers and all the subsequent drops, as well as minimizing any damage.
and yes, i'm kinda sick of watching every game starting off with 1 base play. where are all the 14cc or whatever builds?!
I think the problem lies with the maps. The maps in SC2 are so small compared to the larger BW maps. Smaller maps means more 1 base builds and discourages expanding because the bases are so close together. Blizzard needs to make bigger maps so it will promote more fast expands.
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Thank you for that honest evaluation.  Very helpful insight, especially from someone who is well versed in BW, just not in SC2.
Now, this same issue applies to English commentators, as many English speaking viewers will be still completely unfamiliar with SC2 and just join their friends in watching it, etc. In this aspect, I appreciated the work of Tasteless yesterday. He would explain very simple "obvious" things about the game, clearly in an effort to ease the life of those viewers who are still quite new. I think more commentators of major SC2 events should strive to do that more often.
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its the ro64. Its like every other league, it only really starts to get inteeresting at ro16.
Anyways tasteless and nonsuperdanielman were pretty good but i still want sdm back he makes the broadcast way more casual and fun. Artosis is good too though. Hope he drops out so he can commentate more
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On September 05 2010 12:40 tyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 12:24 awu25 wrote:
not everyone likes 20 min+ games
everytime i watch a BW replay on youtube i skip the first 5-10 minutes cause it's just a video of players expanding While this is somewhat true, it's pretty risky :p Example (skip to 7:00 for the actual game) : + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwkYpTTkGcc
One of my favorites games of 2009 :D
Oh god, I remember that finals series... utter rape by Jaedong. good times.
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konadora
Singapore66364 Posts
On September 05 2010 13:30 FuRong wrote:
I don't have a problem with her voice, isn't that the same girl who commentates BW? I thought it was, but I could be wrong =/
nope, she's the original GOM commentator. the OGN commentator for BW does a much better job, and at least she's funny at times :/
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konadora
Singapore66364 Posts
On September 05 2010 13:34 ig0tfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 11:40 konadora wrote:On September 05 2010 11:25 SubtleArt wrote:
I really didn't like any of the games. If we saw similar games in BW they'd all be called boring or 1 sided. The only thing I was mildly impressed by was Idra's defense in game 1. Every game was so short though. If Sc2 is gonna succeed, Blizzard has to offer players either a greater advantage on defense or something to that nature to allow players to fast expand. That, or we have to work out macro builds, cause games that all end in under 13 minutes is pretty lame + Show Spoiler [GSL spoilers] +have to agree with this, 2nd game was just kinda like the T trying to pull off a fancy and ended up not doing any real damage and just losing due to sticking to medivac drops. first game i was impressed with idra's defense because he managed to predict the reapers and all the subsequent drops, as well as minimizing any damage.
and yes, i'm kinda sick of watching every game starting off with 1 base play. where are all the 14cc or whatever builds?! I think the problem lies with the maps. The maps in SC2 are so small compared to the larger BW maps. Smaller maps means more 1 base builds and discourages expanding because the bases are so close together. Blizzard needs to make bigger maps so it will promote more fast expands.
and i believe, a tighter natural. seriously, any form of FE is bound to get screwed, as far as i can see.
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There's also the issue of no high ground advantage, and having an early-game unit which can go up cliffs negating the use of a natural wall-off (which incidentally, completely breaks team games as well). It's going to be more difficult to find safe FE builds for sure.
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konadora
Singapore66364 Posts
On September 05 2010 18:51 infinity2k9 wrote:
There's also the issue of no high ground advantage, and having an early-game unit which can go up cliffs negating the use of a natural wall-off (which incidentally, completely breaks team games as well). It's going to be more difficult to find safe FE builds for sure.
i think that can be fixed by denying such jump ramps, right? i'm sure map designers can help to overcome that.
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EPT
