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On August 18 2010 16:44 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 16:36 dogabutila wrote:
Wait, so because I want nothing more then a balanced game (seeing as how I play random, I hate to be gimped 1/3 of the time) I am out for revenge on terran?
// less then 1/3 I suppose, since the problem is really only zvt. But there are /alot/ of terrans around. No... you aren't getting it. What we are trying to say is instead of looking for nerfs from Blizzard to solve your problems people should be experimenting and trying to find solutions. Doing things yourself is always more rewarding than throwing your hands up in the air and refusing to play with the lego until someone finds the missing piece for you. Don't be the guy who sits there following random build orders and then going: "well I did what I was meant to do and I lost but that guy was terran lol terran is op STRAIGHT TO THE FORUMS" The game has not been figured out yet. Brood War still hasn't been "solved" and it has been 12 years since it came out.
No, you dont get it. Most players don't get it in general. There is no creativity to be had with zerg anymore because they have no more options. The options were found, and used, and then taken out of the game.
I'm not saying everything has been done, there are strats that I cannot use because of insanely high APM requirements that would probably take a current BW pro (aka jaedong) to pull off. I'm thinking contaminate play etc. However, most of the other things that can be done, have been done already.
People don't understand just how limited zerg is. I'm not looking for nerfs to some races, I'm looking for buffs to zerg. They were over nerfed plain and simple. Go back and read that post I linked to.
Playing other races is significantly easier. I know, I've played random nearly every single match. You guys need to play zerg to understand the nature of the problem.
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On August 18 2010 16:49 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe some sort of dedicated map balancing team should be formed, consisting of an even amount of top players. Also if smaller tournaments experimented using custom maps (like gosucoaching weekly- ok that's not small, but it's regular and relatively low key), this would give huge exposure to custom maps (all we really need is Trump to play on them XD).
Every week we run the iCCup Map series with three of the latest maps from myself, konicki and SUPEROUMAN. There are 4 showmatches from high-level players played on all three maps every tuesday and the event seems to be attracting more and more people every week, which is fantastic (last week we hit 2k, i missed this week for reasons that definitely contribute to my desire to rant tonight but are completely unrelated). The iCCup Map Series and iCCup using the custom maps in general is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm worried that if we sit around on the Blizzard maps for too long, that standard will become too... standard and we could lose our chance at SC2 being the e-sport that it has the potential to be.
Yeah, but I just feel like this isn't enough. I'm not completely sure how it's done with bw proleague maps, but I assume there is a decent in house testing- then followed by the tournament to test them. Then there are final changes made if necessary, and they are played on. The problem with this system is it isn't definitive enough. I am again going on assumption here for the system you use, Map maker has idea and makes map- uses head and community feedback to create initial balance. Map is released and played in showmatch. End. I think there needs to be some form of system in which 1) maps are created by a recognizable figure/group (we already have) 2) maps are thoroughly inhouse tested for balance (I assume we don't have) 3) maps are pro tested, and exposed (we have) 4) maps are made evenly playable at every level public (nowhere close to having). This makes an official map that tournament organizers can trust. Again, the main problem is distribution. Custom games are too random for balance (ie you can have diamond vs bronze), and there is no system to implement this into any ladder- even if we did have custom ladders.
On August 18 2010 16:49 illumination wrote:
whining does fix imbalance because the terrans whiend in the beginning of beta.. and well it works also Blizzard isnt going to change ladder maps any sooner than editing the units so your solution isnt viable
This is the kind of view that has gotten us to this point. We can't rely on dues ex machina (Blizzard) to solve all of our problems.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 18 2010 16:49 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe some sort of dedicated map balancing team should be formed, consisting of an even amount of top players. Also if smaller tournaments experimented using custom maps (like gosucoaching weekly- ok that's not small, but it's regular and relatively low key), this would give huge exposure to custom maps (all we really need is Trump to play on them XD).
Every week we run the iCCup Map series with three of the latest maps from myself, konicki and SUPEROUMAN. There are 4 showmatches from high-level players played on all three maps every tuesday and the event seems to be attracting more and more people every week, which is fantastic (last week we hit 2k, i missed this week for reasons that definitely contribute to my desire to rant tonight but are completely unrelated). The iCCup Map Series and iCCup using the custom maps in general is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm worried that if we sit around on the Blizzard maps for too long, that standard will become too... standard and we could lose our chance at SC2 being the e-sport that it has the potential to be.
iCCup using custom maps is completely the WRONG direction for the development of the game. You are just setting yourselves up for disasters once you use them in high level tournaments - as you've already experienced yourself with Huk recently. The reason being is that we don't even understand balance of the game on the maps that Blizzard are providing for us. If we don't have a grasp of how the games works properly then how can you design a map to be balanced? With the stigma that's already attached to the foreign mapping scene any damage you do to its credibility now may be irreversible. Incredibly careless of the iCCup team, but hey, that's somewhat to be expected since they've been pushing foreign maps so hard during SC1.
You're not going to lose out on SC2 becoming an esport, it already is an esport. An with 3 years of expansions it's not just going to up and die like that. There is plenty of time for development and there are going to be dramatic changes in balance that happen with each patch and as the metagame evolves. Custom maps slow down this process, not speed it up. Indeed, if players have to work out how to play on too many maps then we aren't able to get the game balanced as quickly as we would like since they're spending time working out maps rather than working out matchups. Further, the first SC1 custom maps game about 2~ years after BW was released - there certainly is no rush here. If you rush things, you could possibly cause irreparable damage to the foreign map making community - but I hope that the damage is just limited to the iccup map team.
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We tried to use mutas, blizzard added thor splash, buffed turrets, and added phoenix moving shot.
We tried to use queens, and queen movement speed off of creep got severely nerfed.
We tried to mix roaches into unit combinations, they got 1 armor removed, made slower, cost 2 supply, made burrow more expensive.
We tried to use neural parasite, it got nerfed to 12 seconds.
We got over nerfed pure and simple.
Also, other than metalopolis, the maps are terrible for zerg.
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On August 18 2010 17:41 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 16:49 prodiG wrote:Maybe some sort of dedicated map balancing team should be formed, consisting of an even amount of top players. Also if smaller tournaments experimented using custom maps (like gosucoaching weekly- ok that's not small, but it's regular and relatively low key), this would give huge exposure to custom maps (all we really need is Trump to play on them XD).
Every week we run the iCCup Map series with three of the latest maps from myself, konicki and SUPEROUMAN. There are 4 showmatches from high-level players played on all three maps every tuesday and the event seems to be attracting more and more people every week, which is fantastic (last week we hit 2k, i missed this week for reasons that definitely contribute to my desire to rant tonight but are completely unrelated). The iCCup Map Series and iCCup using the custom maps in general is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm worried that if we sit around on the Blizzard maps for too long, that standard will become too... standard and we could lose our chance at SC2 being the e-sport that it has the potential to be. iCCup using custom maps is completely the WRONG direction for the development of the game. You are just setting yourselves up for disasters once you use them in high level tournaments - as you've already experienced yourself with Huk recently. The reason being is that we don't even understand balance of the game on the maps that Blizzard are providing for us. If we don't have a grasp of how the games works properly then how can you design a map to be balanced? With the stigma that's already attached to the foreign mapping scene any damage you do to its credibility now may be irreversible. Incredibly careless of the iCCup team, but hey, that's somewhat to be expected since they've been pushing foreign maps so hard during SC1. You're not going to lose out on SC2 becoming an esport, it already is an esport. An with 3 years of expansions it's not just going to up and die like that. There is plenty of time for development and there are going to be dramatic changes in balance that happen with each patch and as the metagame evolves. Custom maps slow down this process, not speed it up. Indeed, if players have to work out how to play on too many maps then we aren't able to get the game balanced as quickly as we would like since they're spending time working out maps rather than working out matchups. Further, the first SC1 custom maps game about 2~ years after BW was released - there certainly is no rush here. If you rush things, you could possibly cause irreparable damage to the foreign map making community - but I hope that the damage is just limited to the iccup map team. I disagree with the bold statement. I believe zerg was overnerfed, but I believe a large problem the largest problem with the balance comes with the maps.
How can we examine racial balance if the maps skew the balance?
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On August 18 2010 17:45 rockon1215 wrote:
We tried to use mutas, blizzard added thor splash, buffed turrets, and added phoenix moving shot.
We tried to use queens, and queen movement speed off of creep got severely nerfed.
We tried to mix roaches into unit combinations, they got 1 armor removed, made slower, cost 2 supply, made burrow more expensive.
We tried to use neural parasite, it got nerfed to 12 seconds.
We got over nerfed pure and simple.
Also, other than metalopolis, the maps are terrible for zerg.
Not to mention, there was nydus play but they increased the spawn time so that even drones can kill it before it roars.
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I think Blizzard's official maps are long overdue for a rotation. Between the beta and even after release these maps have been played constantly for 6 months now, and to this day 90% of the games I play on blistering sands and steppes of war end with cheese, and every Z that plays vs T on lost temple is going to end up here adding to the hive mind. Time do be done with those maps and move on in my opinion.
Really the only map they should keep around is Metalopolis. There are so many awesome 1v1 user-created maps and even some of Blizzard's non-ladder maps are great. I'd love to see some changes, as well.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 18 2010 17:50 rockon1215 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 17:41 Plexa wrote:On August 18 2010 16:49 prodiG wrote:Maybe some sort of dedicated map balancing team should be formed, consisting of an even amount of top players. Also if smaller tournaments experimented using custom maps (like gosucoaching weekly- ok that's not small, but it's regular and relatively low key), this would give huge exposure to custom maps (all we really need is Trump to play on them XD).
Every week we run the iCCup Map series with three of the latest maps from myself, konicki and SUPEROUMAN. There are 4 showmatches from high-level players played on all three maps every tuesday and the event seems to be attracting more and more people every week, which is fantastic (last week we hit 2k, i missed this week for reasons that definitely contribute to my desire to rant tonight but are completely unrelated). The iCCup Map Series and iCCup using the custom maps in general is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm worried that if we sit around on the Blizzard maps for too long, that standard will become too... standard and we could lose our chance at SC2 being the e-sport that it has the potential to be. iCCup using custom maps is completely the WRONG direction for the development of the game. You are just setting yourselves up for disasters once you use them in high level tournaments - as you've already experienced yourself with Huk recently. The reason being is that we don't even understand balance of the game on the maps that Blizzard are providing for us. If we don't have a grasp of how the games works properly then how can you design a map to be balanced? With the stigma that's already attached to the foreign mapping scene any damage you do to its credibility now may be irreversible. Incredibly careless of the iCCup team, but hey, that's somewhat to be expected since they've been pushing foreign maps so hard during SC1. You're not going to lose out on SC2 becoming an esport, it already is an esport. An with 3 years of expansions it's not just going to up and die like that. There is plenty of time for development and there are going to be dramatic changes in balance that happen with each patch and as the metagame evolves. Custom maps slow down this process, not speed it up. Indeed, if players have to work out how to play on too many maps then we aren't able to get the game balanced as quickly as we would like since they're spending time working out maps rather than working out matchups. Further, the first SC1 custom maps game about 2~ years after BW was released - there certainly is no rush here. If you rush things, you could possibly cause irreparable damage to the foreign map making community - but I hope that the damage is just limited to the iccup map team. I disagree with the bold statement. I believe zerg was overnerfed, but I believe a large problem the largest problem with the balance comes with the maps. How can we examine racial balance if the maps skew the balance? If the maps are skewing the balance, why are custom maps going to change that? The mapset blizzard provided makes a lot of sense from a balance testing point of view. Each map is unique and has various features which make it distinct from the others in the pool. While some concepts are not working as well (e.g. Kulas, DO) they provide invaluable information as to how the races play out on an incredibly diverse set of maps. Yes, it sucks for the competitive scene in the short term - but in the long term is going to make for a better balanced game.
You can't just spit out 16 different Lost Temple clones for 4 years and expect people to stay interested. The variety of maps that were possible in Broodwar was only because the races were so well balanced in general that many different map designs were possible. That's not to say we didn't have imbalanced maps, but we had a large set of balanced maps which were incredibly diverse. If you stop thinking about balance on maps like DO/Kulas etc then those map concepts will be forever lost and unbalanced since we never bothered to balance them in the first place.
Custom maps have a place in the competitive scene - that time is definitely not now.
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On August 18 2010 17:41 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 16:49 prodiG wrote:Maybe some sort of dedicated map balancing team should be formed, consisting of an even amount of top players. Also if smaller tournaments experimented using custom maps (like gosucoaching weekly- ok that's not small, but it's regular and relatively low key), this would give huge exposure to custom maps (all we really need is Trump to play on them XD).
Every week we run the iCCup Map series with three of the latest maps from myself, konicki and SUPEROUMAN. There are 4 showmatches from high-level players played on all three maps every tuesday and the event seems to be attracting more and more people every week, which is fantastic (last week we hit 2k, i missed this week for reasons that definitely contribute to my desire to rant tonight but are completely unrelated). The iCCup Map Series and iCCup using the custom maps in general is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm worried that if we sit around on the Blizzard maps for too long, that standard will become too... standard and we could lose our chance at SC2 being the e-sport that it has the potential to be. iCCup using custom maps is completely the WRONG direction for the development of the game. You are just setting yourselves up for disasters once you use them in high level tournaments - as you've already experienced yourself with Huk recently. The reason being is that we don't even understand balance of the game on the maps that Blizzard are providing for us. If we don't have a grasp of how the games works properly then how can you design a map to be balanced? With the stigma that's already attached to the foreign mapping scene any damage you do to its credibility now may be irreversible. Incredibly careless of the iCCup team, but hey, that's somewhat to be expected since they've been pushing foreign maps so hard during SC1. You're not going to lose out on SC2 becoming an esport, it already is an esport. An with 3 years of expansions it's not just going to up and die like that. There is plenty of time for development and there are going to be dramatic changes in balance that happen with each patch and as the metagame evolves. Custom maps slow down this process, not speed it up. Indeed, if players have to work out how to play on too many maps then we aren't able to get the game balanced as quickly as we would like since they're spending time working out maps rather than working out matchups. Further, the first SC1 custom maps game about 2~ years after BW was released - there certainly is no rush here. If you rush things, you could possibly cause irreparable damage to the foreign map making community - but I hope that the damage is just limited to the iccup map team.
I've only seen the maps shown to be well balanced end up being further used in other iCCup events such as iCCup TV League and iCCup TV Challenge.
The general point I'm trying to make is that the more things we try, the more things we can say "that doesnt' work, this is stacked for P, this is stacked for T," etc. Once we can start nailing down map features that clearly work for one race or another we can start balancing the maps a lot more finely.
I agree that too many maps - especially new ones - in the map pool can hinder progress quite significantly. However, no new maps hinders it just as much. Again, we'll never find the right balance until we experiment.
The first SC1 custom maps came out 2 years after BW was released because the world of RTS was so new. I was only a mouse-only UMS noob at the time (and I might be way out of the park here on this because of that) but it seems to me like we are a lot more developed now. I think SC2 will realize it's potential and evolve MUCH MUCH faster than BW did because of that. Every other game that's had a sequel was like that, I doubt SC2 will be any different.
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On August 18 2010 17:09 emperorchampion wrote:
Yeah, but I just feel like this isn't enough. I'm not completely sure how it's done with bw proleague maps, but I assume there is a decent in house testing- then followed by the tournament to test them. Then there are final changes made if necessary, and they are played on. The problem with this system is it isn't definitive enough. I am again going on assumption here for the system you use, Map maker has idea and makes map- uses head and community feedback to create initial balance. Map is released and played in showmatch. End. I think there needs to be some form of system in which 1) maps are created by a recognizable figure/group (we already have) 2) maps are thoroughly inhouse tested for balance (I assume we don't have) 3) maps are pro tested, and exposed (we have) 4) maps are made evenly playable at every level public (nowhere close to having). This makes an official map that tournament organizers can trust. Again, the main problem is distribution. Custom games are too random for balance (ie you can have diamond vs bronze), and there is no system to implement this into any ladder- even if we did have custom ladders.
I think I'm going to have to do some more research on how the Koreans do it. I try to do as much testing as possible myself and have as many of my friends and colleagues play the map after it's released so I can do some quick tweaks before it gets played in the iCCup Map series.
What I think I'm going to do is use some older maps of mine for the iCCup Map Series for the next few weeks so I can spend more time learning the other races and getting my skills up so I can be a higher level player. I don't think mid-level random is hard to achieve, and once I've played all three races in all nine matchups thoroughly I'll have a much much better idea of what to do with my maps (and it will make me a better caster! woohoo!). I may also consider slowing down the creation process, one new map a week gives the map plenty of time to be whipped together, poorly tested and then forgotten about shortly afterward.
On that note, if any progamers want to give me free lessons on races that aren't terran I would love you forever.
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On August 18 2010 16:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
How long did it take terrans to realize how good are mass reapers? How come noone used ghost even when Jinro displayed how fucking effective they are?
And how come it took dimaga one week after being defeated by a terran or protoss to come up witha new unique strategy to counter?
Now we're going back to the arguement that zerg players just have a phenomenal gaming pedigree, while terrans are mostly Maka-who?
What the fuck does zerg have that could possibly revolutionize the race. They have fewer units to work with and the only spells they have are on the infestor.
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EPT
