• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 08:08
CET 14:08
KST 22:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book15Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0218LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)23Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker10PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar)13
StarCraft 2
General
How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker Terran Scanner Sweep Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) RSL Revival: Season 4 Korea Qualifier (Feb 14) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth Mutation # 510 Safety Violation
Brood War
General
Which units you wish saw more use in the game? StarCraft player reflex TE scores [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Gypsy to Korea ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Diablo 2 thread Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ADHD And Gaming Addiction…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1848 users

Gameplay vs Lore

Blogs > disciple
Post a Reply
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
August 04 2010 01:42 GMT
#1
After 10 years of waiting, Wings Of Liberty finally unfolded the aftermaths of BroodWar. And although the community's feedback about the single player campaign, that including the plot and the end, was rather positive, there are some people, saying that SC2 is missing something vital from its granddad, something that made a significant part of Broodwars campaign, despite the inferior gameplay mechanics, more enjoyable. I'm talking about the characters. For many the evolution of the game universe caused a common dullness in all major characters - Arcturus Mengsk as a prime example. I'm not going to review in depth the transition of all important figures in the StarCraft universe, I'm making this post to show that Blizzard are not doing this for the first time.

For many years Diablo 2 and its expansion were considered the king of the action RPG genre. People say it managed to create a new niche, to revolutionize the gameplay, but for me in personal, Diablo 2 is the biggest letdown in my days as a gamer. I'm acknowledging all the achievements of the thing as far as gameplay is concerned, but I hate it at the same time, because it destroyed the universe I think Blizzard had the most room for evolution. I guess not that many people here were fans of the original Diablo, so I will care the explain why D2 did the franchise such a bad favor.

Unlike Diablo 2, the original Diablo is set in a single location and everything takes place around the town of Tristram. Having an only starting point, or lets call it a town, made Blizzard put an extra effort to create a unique mood and atmosphere. The moment you enter the game for the first time you get overwhelmed by Blizzards best up to date music theme, by Matt Uelmen:



Because you are eventually going to spend a lot of time in this town, there is a huge possibility for the theme to get annoying after a while - but it doesn't. I'm speaking on behalf of everyone that loved the original Diablo - we all loved that melody as well. It wasnt only this theme thou, the music for every dungeon was spot on, compared to that, what Blizzard did for Diablo 2 was the generic orchestra stuff, so dull, that the only theme I remember was the remix of the Tristram theme, once you get the quest to save Cane. But even if you neglect the music as a factor for creating original atmosphere, what makes every good RPG stand above all others are the NPCs. Diablo's original NPC were so full of personality and character, that it made learning information about every new quest a wonderful event. No Diablo 2 NPC is even half as awesome as Griswold and Adria is one of the greatest NPCs ever made for a RPG game. The fact that her witch hut was far away from the other houses created a believable sense of community - Tristram was a living place with a strange town folk, communicating and spreading gossips about each other. The drunk guy was always sitting away from the town square, cause no one wants him, the clever boy with the fancy artifacts (Psst, over here!) was far away in the woods, so you could make your black trades with him away from the eyes of the town folk. Overall, every single detail had the task to make you involved in the story of this town, because the most important characteristic of the original Diablo's plot was, that it represented the conflict and the dramatic events of this single town. To put the whole plot in a sentence, a dark power is corrupting the Tristram town for years, people are afraid to go into the cathedral, because of the evil lurking within. Tristram's universe was a dark one, very much like the middle age in western Europe, and everything in Diablo's lore was centered about this dark gothic atmosphere. The plot was running rather slowly and very smoothly - as if the player was unveiling a mystery.

The other major thing that set the stone for the amazing Diablo universe were the character classes. You had a male warrior, a male sorcerer and a female rogue - thats it. They all shared the same spells and each of them had an only unique skill which was, lets be honest - rather pointless. But what made this set of characters so great was that they were all again believable and correct to the lore of the universe. None of them had super natural force by default - like summoning undead, having a holy aura or be a shapeshifter.

This guy

[image loading]

became this...

[image loading]


Lets not forget that the story of Diablo 2 is set right after the events of the original Diablo, which makes this huge evolution of the regular character and habitant of diablo's universe completely illogical. If you have just played the original Diablo and jump right on the character creation of Diablo 2, the most natural reaction you would have will be "Amazon ?! Really" but we will get to that later. Overall, one of the most disappointing transformations in Diablo's universe was the change in the arcane magic's appeal - from something considered in the original diablo as a witchcraft, that you could learn only from ancient scrolls and books, it became the most common thing you get to learn naturally on level 6.

Another thing that made me dislike Diablo 2 were the artifacts. The benefit of the revised prefix/suffix system meant there is now a great variety of artifacts, the introduction of the rare and set items did the gameplay only good as well. But my disappointment were first of all the unique artifacts. Those in Diablo 1 were a really rare thing, but that doesn't mean they were all super awesome and useful. What all unique artifacts in diablo 1 had, was a personality

[image loading]

The Wizardspike is one of the few unique artifacts in Diablo 1, that wasn't lowering any of your attributes. Overall you had to make a trade-off when you wanted to use an unique item, but even if you didn't, the satisfaction of finding one of these was really great, because they all looked so cool. Speaking of which, another step backwards for me was the design of the items -

This...

[image loading]

... became this

[image loading]


The cartoony style of the original Diablo's items was exciting, cool and correct to the lore. The direction the artists took for Diablo 2 was rather disappointing - most of the items looked realistic as a picture and dull...
[image loading] [image loading]

Naj's Plate in Diablo and Diablo 2...


Overall thou, the final nail in the coffin of Diablo's universe was the approach to the story. As I said earlier, the plot in the original Diablo was really locally based, but in the sequel, it was global. The conflicts in the second game involved the whole world, which meant the universe should be expand. Which is all good, if Blizzard managed to pull out the same Tristram trick with every new act and location. If every location felt like a living entity with unique character and atmosphere, Diablo 2 would've been in a great relationship to the original game, but what Blizzard did instead is trying to focus on diversity - we had a desert, a jungle, a mountain and a"hellish" town. All very different but with no personality whatsoever. In their effort to make the conflict in the game look global, Blizzard completely distorted the timezone and the overall atmosphere of the game. From a mystery and dark age game, Diablo 2 became a melee of your character, killing a horde of creatures, typical for the environment of the different acts. All in all, its obvious to me that Blizzard are first coming with ideas about the gameplay, and then try to bend the lore around it, to justify the transformation. Whats terrible about this, is that the player, who appreciated the game for its depth and unique atmosphere, ends up with a click-click-click hack'n'slash bullshit, where characters from completely different backgrounds and mythology unite against the great evil, that will apparently destroy the world for whatever reason.

Diablo 2 is not only incorrect to the atmosphere, the timezone and the lore of the original game. It completely lives behind all its origins, to become what it is. This would've been totally fine if Blizzard decided to locate the game in an entirely new universe and leave the lore of the original Diablo as it is, but instead they've ruined it all, just to build their typical generic Hollywood shit above it. Diablo 2 is maybe indeed more appealing to the general public which actually makes me very concerned about Diablo 3 and the future of the franchise.

Actually I'm not concerned at all, its pretty much hopeless. Rainbow hack'n'slash for the win...

Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
August 04 2010 01:47 GMT
#2
Matt Uelmen was a genious.
I believe he also did sound effects for scbw...(hence the sounds being incredibly bleh in sc2).
I miss him.
(i thought diablo 2 was good :|)
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
xLethargicax
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States469 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-04 02:07:27
August 04 2010 02:03 GMT
#3
I feel as if you have hardly played Diablo II. Because as you are talking about the looks of items. They do change as they get unique. There is no such thing as "artifacts." I don't want to sound like the asshole-flamer, but there were no artifacts in Diablo II.

the items go as follows,

trash, normal, elite, exceptional, types of items.

then, white bonus, magical, rare, set, unique, crafted, runeword.

They usually changed visuals from a regular item to a unique, I.E. Biggins bonnet. The hero's where more diversified as well, plus, the story of Diablo II does not take place directly after Diablo I.

And I shall repeat ; the story of Diablo II does not take place directly after Diablo I.

Sorry to sound like an ass.

EDIT - And about the diversity, Diablo II has unparalleled item diversity. The way rare items work depends on the iLevel of the item which is an unseen tag based off of where something drops, same with all items.

The iLevel then determines how many mods it can have, then adds random mods onto an item. Thats with yellow named items ( rares ), blues ( magical ), and crafted ( orange ). There is literally a near endless amount of mod possibilities and all uniques have non fixed attributes. A pHoZ is worth about three times more then a HoZ one stat under a pHoZ, for example.

Double edit, and yes. Matt Uelman is a brilliant musician, and Diablo I is amazing!
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
August 04 2010 02:04 GMT
#4
That soundtrack still sends chills down my spine. I overall agree with most of what you said.
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-19 16:10:11
August 04 2010 02:06 GMT
#5
s
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
August 04 2010 02:14 GMT
#6
On August 04 2010 11:06 disciple wrote:
As I said item diversity is awesome for gameplay, but I dont see how 90% of how they look or even the options they had was correct to the lore, again everything was bend around the gameplay. I dont say Diablo 2 was shit, it was a great game

I think original D2 as opposed to lord of destruction was a better game in that respect. You'd find a sick rare and it would feel truely unique, rather than everyone wearing identical uniques/runewords as was the case a few years later. I actually prefer this in terms of gameplay as well.
xLethargicax
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States469 Posts
August 04 2010 02:30 GMT
#7
On August 04 2010 11:14 hifriend wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2010 11:06 disciple wrote:
As I said item diversity is awesome for gameplay, but I dont see how 90% of how they look or even the options they had was correct to the lore, again everything was bend around the gameplay. I dont say Diablo 2 was shit, it was a great game

I think original D2 as opposed to lord of destruction was a better game in that respect. You'd find a sick rare and it would feel truely unique, rather than everyone wearing identical uniques/runewords as was the case a few years later. I actually prefer this in terms of gameplay as well.


Well, thats what happens in all long term RPGs. Amazingly hard to find items can't be like that for ever, due to general population. :[
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
August 04 2010 02:40 GMT
#8
On August 04 2010 11:30 xLethargicax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2010 11:14 hifriend wrote:
On August 04 2010 11:06 disciple wrote:
As I said item diversity is awesome for gameplay, but I dont see how 90% of how they look or even the options they had was correct to the lore, again everything was bend around the gameplay. I dont say Diablo 2 was shit, it was a great game

I think original D2 as opposed to lord of destruction was a better game in that respect. You'd find a sick rare and it would feel truely unique, rather than everyone wearing identical uniques/runewords as was the case a few years later. I actually prefer this in terms of gameplay as well.


Well, thats what happens in all long term RPGs. Amazingly hard to find items can't be like that for ever, due to general population. :[

But if you've played any classic recently (the last few years) people still do use rares a LOT and characters just have a more unique feel to them imo.
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
September 26 2011 00:23 GMT
#9
oh no all the images are broken now T_T
brood war for life, brood war forever
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
September 26 2011 00:44 GMT
#10
On August 04 2010 10:42 disciple wrote:

Diablo 2 is not only incorrect to the atmosphere, the timezone and the lore of the original game. It completely lives behind all its origins, to become what it is. This would've been totally fine if Blizzard decided to locate the game in an entirely new universe and leave the lore of the original Diablo as it is, but instead they've ruined it all, just to build their typical generic Hollywood shit above it. Diablo 2 is maybe indeed more appealing to the general public which actually makes me very concerned about Diablo 3 and the future of the franchise.

Actually I'm not concerned at all, its pretty much hopeless. Rainbow hack'n'slash for the win...


As a person who has only played Fate (lol) for dungeon crawlers/ RPGs, Diablo 3 seems pretty sick just looking at the beta (Day[9]s playthrough was lol)


/ignoring necro bump, though unbroked pics would be nice kthx
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
12:00
Bonus Cup #3
uThermal308
Liquipedia
LiuLi Cup
11:00
2025 Grand Finals Playoffs
Clem vs MaruLIVE!
Rogue vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Serral
ComeBackTV 1856
RotterdaM1845
PiGStarcraft555
IndyStarCraft 372
BRAT_OK 222
Rex161
3DClanTV 64
IntoTheiNu 28
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1845
PiGStarcraft555
IndyStarCraft 372
uThermal 308
BRAT_OK 222
Rex 161
goblin 84
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 45238
Barracks 6530
Jaedong 1540
Flash 1489
Hyuk 980
Soma 607
Stork 567
firebathero 440
Light 407
Soulkey 327
[ Show more ]
Snow 246
Rush 199
Last 170
Leta 142
Pusan 115
Killer 60
Aegong 57
sorry 53
Movie 49
Bonyth 39
Free 38
ToSsGirL 32
Sharp 31
Hm[arnc] 31
soO 29
Terrorterran 28
yabsab 25
Shine 23
JulyZerg 23
IntoTheRainbow 20
910 20
zelot 17
Shinee 17
HiyA 15
ivOry 11
Calm 0
Dota 2
Gorgc2894
singsing2120
XcaliburYe167
febbydoto9
Counter-Strike
olofmeister3295
fl0m1891
byalli440
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King94
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor281
Other Games
B2W.Neo1043
crisheroes436
KnowMe55
ArmadaUGS45
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL22208
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH118
• Adnapsc2 7
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix7
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2855
Upcoming Events
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
3h 47m
RSL Revival
4h 52m
AI Arena Tournament
6h 52m
Replay Cast
10h 52m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
20h 52m
LiuLi Cup
21h 52m
Ladder Legends
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
Wardi Open
1d 22h
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S1: W8
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: King of Kings
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round Qualifier
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.