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A while back when Destination was MOTW, in ZvP I figured out a build to optimize an economic advantage. It would go 9 overlord, and at 150 minerals I would send out two drones, one behind the minerals at my nat, and the other to scout. When his scouting probe goes into my base, I throw down the 12hatch, and upon seeing that he makes no cannons. At that point, my scouting drone is in his natural to block his nexus.
After a bit of this I realized that if he went nexus first, then his first zealot would be delayed, so I went, hey, why not send out a drone at 13 and do 3 hatch before pool? His response was not to make any cannons at all until significantly later in the game and just tech straight up.
So TL, I ask you, where does this economic one-up-manship end? What's next? Forge fast double expand? 5 hatch before pool? People agreeing not to rush each other for 20 minutes?
(Okay, I lied, his actual response was to cannon rush my third which I like a moron didn't scout. ._.)
 
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Well ZvP is just a huge econ-whoring fest anyway so I wouldn't even be surprised if it escalated to that one day. Seriously, it's the only matchup where a 6 food army is legitimate like 7 minutes into the game.
Also, could you have stopped the cannon rush even if you scouted it? Lings were probably still a while away and it takes too long to get drones over there. I guess you could cancel hatchery but that's less than ideal.
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it's never going to get to a point where a zerg will 5 hatch before pool, same with protoss.. they will never double expand before teching vs zerg
BTW why is this titled econ cheese?
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Believe it or not, double expanding before pool has one hard counter that is infallible, double cannon rush, some peruvian (go figure :\) did it to me, you can only save one expo..and if you dont see the rush at your nat then you lose.
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On July 21 2010 07:16 lokiM wrote:
BTW why is this titled econ cheese?
I thought most people considered 3 hatch before pool (especially in zvp) econ cheese? Same as 14cc.
Next time, if I don't lose my scouting drone, I'll just send it to my third next time to block any shenanigans, see if that works out.
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I've seen nongmin 5 hatch before pool ZvP on desti (I don't know if he won but I remember him holding with some drone losses) so it can go on pretty far
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On July 21 2010 07:36 n.DieJokes wrote:
I've seen nongmin 5 hatch before pool ZvP on desti (I don't know if he won but I remember him holding with some drone losses) so it can go on pretty far
Didn't he do that to some noobie while he was climbing up the iccup ladder?
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On July 21 2010 07:17 Megalisk wrote:
Believe it or not, double expanding before pool has one hard counter that is infallible, double cannon rush, some peruvian (go figure :\) did it to me, you can only save one expo..and if you dont see the rush at your nat then you lose.
It seems to me like you'd still come out ahead in that exchange, provided you saved your nat and sacrificed the 3rd. You lose 300 minerals for the hatch + 50 for the drone. He loses 200 for 2 pylons, plus minimum 1 cannon at each base (300), so 500 minerals minimum (more realistically 650+), plus has to have a probe out there building (which can't be mining). Then when you build a bunch of zerglings to fight off the cannon(s) at your nat you can ignore the cannon(s) at your 3rd and go hit his nat, forcing him to build even more cannons there to avoid dying, setting him further behind.
You had to spend more money on zerglings, which means fewer drones, so that's a further hit to your economy. Both of you will have your build orders thrown off tremendously, and it will be a little annoying to take your 3rd (which will be quite late unless you go for the other potential 3rd on Desti), but at least in terms of minerals the Z should come out ahead (I think?).
Of course, I haven't tried it, or played at all with it, so take my comment with a (rather large) grain of salt. It's certainly an odd situation, but it seems to be not unlike the 12nex vs. a large SCV count bunker rush in PvT, where you can lose the 400 mineral Nexus and still come out ahead on econ because pulling like 8 SCVs and building a bunker costs the T way more than 400 minerals.
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On July 21 2010 08:11 QuothTheRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:17 Megalisk wrote:
Believe it or not, double expanding before pool has one hard counter that is infallible, double cannon rush, some peruvian (go figure :\) did it to me, you can only save one expo..and if you dont see the rush at your nat then you lose. It seems to me like you'd still come out ahead in that exchange, provided you saved your nat and sacrificed the 3rd. You lose 300 minerals for the hatch + 50 for the drone. He loses 200 for 2 pylons, plus minimum 1 cannon at each base (300), so 500 minerals minimum (more realistically 650+), plus has to have a probe out there building (which can't be mining). Then when you build a bunch of zerglings to fight off the cannon(s) at your nat you can ignore the cannon(s) at your 3rd and go hit his nat, forcing him to build even more cannons there to avoid dying, setting him further behind. You had to spend more money on zerglings, which means fewer drones, so that's a further hit to your economy. Both of you will have your build orders thrown off tremendously, and it will be a little annoying to take your 3rd (which will be quite late unless you go for the other potential 3rd on Desti), but at least in terms of minerals the Z should come out ahead (I think?). Of course, I haven't tried it, or played at all with it, so take my comment with a (rather large) grain of salt. It's certainly an odd situation, but it seems to be not unlike the 12nex vs. a large SCV count bunker rush in PvT, where you can lose the 400 mineral Nexus and still come out ahead on econ because pulling like 8 SCVs and building a bunker costs the T way more than 400 minerals.
You forgot that you pretty have to pull 90% of the drones from your main to defend the nat cannon rush, and if they build a pylon to block you have to glitch drones one at a time over minerals, so its difficult to kill the cannon.
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You obviously want to get away with as much as possible when you're playing to win. Sending out two drones that early hurts your eco pretty badly.
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If you 3 hatch before pool and he scouts this he will go nexus gateway gateway and apply a LOT of pressure on you while he techs and as you mentioned, skips cannons for a while. The double gateway will force you to spend a lot on defense while he is free to to tech to whatever he needs and just progress from there however he feels.
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On July 21 2010 07:36 n.DieJokes wrote:
I've seen nongmin 5 hatch before pool ZvP on desti (I don't know if he won but I remember him holding with some drone losses) so it can go on pretty far
Oh god i want to see this game so bad.
PvZ is all about getting a lot of nexii/hatcheries. Although if most P saw you triple hat before pool they would just laugh and zealot rush you. Two hat before pool is asking for a 2 gate but it's still survivable.
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On July 21 2010 10:32 ghermination wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:36 n.DieJokes wrote:
I've seen nongmin 5 hatch before pool ZvP on desti (I don't know if he won but I remember him holding with some drone losses) so it can go on pretty far Oh god i want to see this game so bad. PvZ is all about getting a lot of nexii/hatcheries. Although if most P saw you triple hat before pool they would just laugh and zealot rush you. Two hat before pool is asking for a 2 gate but it's still survivable.
Wait, what? 2 hat before pool like 12 hatch?
12 hatch is actually quite decent against 2gate if the 2gates are not too early and are in base.
If they're like 8/9 gate or something, then yeah, it might hurt a bit, but those damage the tosses econ too, especially if they're proxied.
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some peruvian (go figure :\) did it to me
LOLLOL What a surprise, read my SIG!!!1
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EPT
