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Active: 32314 users

Difference btw C- and C/C+ terrans?

Blogs > OMin
Post a Reply
OMin
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States545 Posts
May 24 2010 21:14 GMT
#1
I've been stuck at C- for a really long time. A few weeks ago before my finals week, I had hit 3900 several times, which is the closest I've come to getting 4000+ ever.

I'm wondering what the key differences separating C- terrans from C/C+ rank are. What are the specifics that I should focus on that would help me get up to the mid/high yellow ranks?

*
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
May 24 2010 21:16 GMT
#2
Why don't you post some replays and we'll help you out
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
May 24 2010 21:16 GMT
#3
I'd say (as an A- Terran) mechanics and timing. Also defence. Try to optimize your defence, by using less minerals but still being effective. (Turretplacement, supply depot walls).

Also.. positioning
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
WeSt
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Portugal918 Posts
May 24 2010 21:25 GMT
#4
Improve your multi task. Multiple drops while macroing / expoing usually kills C- / C players quite easily.
zvz is imba
daz
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada643 Posts
May 24 2010 21:25 GMT
#5
defense definitely, i personally noticed that up until C i can win 100% of my games against terran with bulldogs or DT drops, but at some point terrans will learn to simcity properly and to scout properly and then those strats just become gambling
Some eat to remember, some smash to forget. 2009msl.com
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6174 Posts
May 24 2010 21:26 GMT
#6
The difference are timing and mechanics, mostly timing. Those are two things I've noticed while passing C- to C/C+.
Imo the difference is higher between C-/C than C/C+.
OMin
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States545 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-24 21:48:14
May 24 2010 21:47 GMT
#7
what exactly do you guys mean by defence? do you mean early/mid game in defending nat/main vs drops and shit, or a defense tank lines for 3rd/4th base expos?

when you mention the bulldog, how would you properly simcity? do you mean having rax/ebay/supplies blocking nat and the turrets in the nat? thanks

edit: this is with tvp in mind
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-24 21:49:36
May 24 2010 21:48 GMT
#8
As someone who's bashed the lower ranks a lot I think there is a huge difference between someone who bounces around C- and someone who can stay at C. They do everything noticeably better, especially scouting, macro, micro.

A lot of C- players try to follow a BO but they'll screw it up and constantly miss depots/SCVs, slowing whatever they're doing down a lot. Also the BO they're trying to execute is just mindlessly churned out without properly scouting what the opponent is doing. Even if they did scout they probably wouldn't know how to react.

Basically Terran players have to rely a lot on having strong basics since they can't abuse highly effective spellcasters like defilers and arbiters or high risk builds like dt drop or ling all-in.

At low levels Protoss or Zerg can just gradually mass an army and attack whenever there's a vulnerability but Terrans have to time their attacks otherwise they just get run over by a far superior army or defilers come out.

TvT is also the longest mirror on average so you get less practice with the important early stages.
No I'm never serious.
l10f *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3241 Posts
May 24 2010 22:39 GMT
#9
There really aren't that much difference between C~C+ in my opinion. It's just the matter of macro usually. Even C- players have the build orders down, know the basic executions, when to expand, and how to micro. It's just that C/C+ player have better mechanics (usually macro). I was stuck in C- for a little, but found it easier to improve from C to B- (although I suck now). Just practice your mechanics and you should improve quickly.
Writer
Crimson)S(hadow
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Philippines526 Posts
May 24 2010 22:42 GMT
#10
experience... just play more games and try to improve little details every single time.
"It's the end of the BW era which i devoted everything to for 10 years. I tried playing sc2, but my BW memories run too deep; I felt like I was playing an entirely different game" -ToSsGirL
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
May 24 2010 22:47 GMT
#11
The thing that holds me back at C- is the amount of time it takes for me to settle into macro mode. C- terrans take a rather long time to comfortably settle into the late-game and stay in the midgame phase where we're the weakest in terms of strength and econ. I feel that the gap between C- and C terrans is huge in terms of how quickly one gets into the late game. It usually takes me 12 minutes to get into the late game and still survive while C's just go straight into macro mode in like 10.
im deaf
Entertaining
Profile Joined September 2007
Canada793 Posts
May 24 2010 22:52 GMT
#12
terran is almost pure mechanics and scouting. they basically just click faster and more efficiently then u
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
May 24 2010 23:00 GMT
#13
You get to C-, hit a brick wall, then jump to B+ within a few months when you practice like crazy.

In my experience at least.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2801 Posts
May 24 2010 23:21 GMT
#14
This is a general abstraction of what I think players go through as they rank up on ICCup.

D-
These critters are at the computer level. They don't use hotkeys nor control groups. They struggle macroing off of one base by missing lots of depots, production rounds, and have at most a control group of peons on their mineral line. They have a very vague idea about build orders and close to no sense of timing. Their gameplay revolves almost entirely on tactics, which are more often than not experimental and based off of their own game sense. Often, their games tend to drag on for hours given they have a peculiar tendency of over-defending themselves and playing passively. They have null scouting.

D
These creatures will never lose to a computer and have learned a single build order fairly well (per MU). Their execution of it, however, is based on an ideal frame of reference; anything you can do against them that can throw them off, will throw them off and render their build useless. This reflects itself on the mineral build up, delayed tech, and bad supply capping that shows in their play afterward. They still experience lots of supply capping and mineral build-up once their have performed their build to the extent of their memory, however, they're much better than a D- player on the fact that they can now deal with 2 bases. They have now developed a sense of needing to attack at a certain point during the game and have dropped most of their overly-defensive tendencies as well. They also have now learned the most frequent-use hotkeys and can micro in a rather average level by use of control groups. They have learned to send out a worker to find the opponent.

D+
These beings have solidified their build order even further and have started to experiment with a new one. They no-longer follow their build blindly; they can now react to what they see with their scouting peon and can branch their overly-trained build (to a certain extent) to fit these new circumstances. They no longer feel as pressured against harass as a D player and can do rather well by keeping up with it macro-wise. They still experience mineral build up during the mid game, however, they have reduced their supply capping very well. They are now thinking towards obtaining a third base. They are now starting to train on their timings and can perform them to a relatively average level. Their micro is now rather solid, however, they still struggle on judging whose army is the strongest until they have suffered severe casualties. They know most, if not all of their hotkeys already and have started to develop a dependency on them.

C-
These humanoids are at a totally different level than the previous three. They now know two solid build orders and have started to experiment with a third one. Their macro is very, very solid and their micro is at a relatively good level. It's hard to get supply blocked given they have now developed a sense of preemptive supply building to maximize their use of income. They are now starting to develop an aggressive mindset and can keep their defense to a minimum. Games at this level now revolve around fights in between massive armies and perfectly securing a third base. They now are starting to train on their tier-three play and have consistent scouting. Their defense is solid and their timings are straight up most of the times. They have now started to develop a sense of attacking two places at the same time, or attacking and dropping simultaneously (multitasking).

C
These souls have a sound mastery of mechanics even though there is still room for improvement. They have now developed a good use of the minimap given their play is now starting to revolve more and more around the notion of multitasking. Their build orders and defense are very solid and their timings are bulls-eye good most of the times. They are starting to perceive the tactic of using mind-games to fool their opponents and their scouting is now good enough to keep them in the game. Mechanics are now starting to become rudimentary - like a foundation - to support higher-level or abstract thinking, strategy and timings are now in the spotlight for further advancement.

I haven't reached C+ yet so I will leave the rest for anyone who's already been there and can enlighten us with his knowledge.
OMin
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States545 Posts
May 24 2010 23:25 GMT
#15
On May 25 2010 08:21 EsX_Raptor wrote:
This is a general abstraction of what I think players go through as they rank up on ICCup.

D-
These critters are at the computer level. They don't use hotkeys nor control groups. They struggle macroing off of one base by missing lots of depots, production rounds, and have at most a control group of peons on their mineral line. They have a very vague idea about build orders and close to no sense of timing. Their gameplay revolves almost entirely on tactics, which are more often than not experimental and based off of their own game sense. Often, their games tend to drag on for hours given they have a peculiar tendency of over-defending themselves and playing passively. They have null scouting.

D
These creatures will never lose to a computer and have learned a single build order fairly well (per MU). Their execution of it, however, is based on an ideal frame of reference; anything you can do against them that can throw them off, will throw them off and render their build useless. This reflects itself on the mineral build up, delayed tech, and bad supply capping that shows in their play afterward. They still experience lots of supply capping and mineral build-up once their have performed their build to the extent of their memory, however, they're much better than a D- player on the fact that they can now deal with 2 bases. They have now developed a sense of needing to attack at a certain point during the game and have dropped most of their overly-defensive tendencies as well. They also have now learned the most frequent-use hotkeys and can micro in a rather average level by use of control groups. They have learned to send out a worker to find the opponent.

D+
These beings have solidified their build order even further and have started to experiment with a new one. They no-longer follow their build blindly; they can now react to what they see with their scouting peon and can branch their overly-trained build (to a certain extent) to fit these new circumstances. They no longer feel as pressured against harass as a D player and can do rather well by keeping up with it macro-wise. They still experience mineral build up during the mid game, however, they have reduced their supply capping very well. They are now thinking towards obtaining a third base. They are now starting to train on their timings and can perform them to a relatively average level. Their micro is now rather solid, however, they still struggle on judging whose army is the strongest until they have suffered severe casualties. They know most, if not all of their hotkeys already and have started to develop a dependency on them.

C-
These humanoids are at a totally different level than the previous three. They now know two solid build orders and have started to experiment with a third one. Their macro is very, very solid and their micro is at a relatively good level. It's hard to get supply blocked given they have now developed a sense of preemptive supply building to maximize their use of income. They are now starting to develop an aggressive mindset and can keep their defense to a minimum. Games at this level now revolve around fights in between massive armies and perfectly securing a third base. They now are starting to train on their tier-three play and have consistent scouting. Their defense is solid and their timings are straight up most of the times. They have now started to develop a sense of attacking two places at the same time, or attacking and dropping simultaneously (multitasking).

C
These souls have a sound mastery of mechanics even though there is still room for improvement. They have now developed a good use of the minimap given their play is now starting to revolve more and more around the notion of multitasking. Their build orders and defense are very solid and their timings are bulls-eye good most of the times. They are starting to perceive the tactic of using mind-games to fool their opponents and their scouting is now good enough to keep them in the game. Mechanics are now starting to become rudimentary - like a foundation - to support higher-level or abstract thinking, strategy and timings are now in the spotlight for further advancement.

I haven't reached C+ yet so I will leave the rest for anyone who's already been there and can enlighten us with his knowledge.


lol i wasnt aware that sc has a great chain of being hahahaha

glad to know that im not a creature, but evidently i dont have a soul (i was 44 points away from it once! )
OMin
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States545 Posts
May 24 2010 23:27 GMT
#16
On May 25 2010 07:47 imBLIND wrote:
The thing that holds me back at C- is the amount of time it takes for me to settle into macro mode. C- terrans take a rather long time to comfortably settle into the late-game and stay in the midgame phase where we're the weakest in terms of strength and econ. I feel that the gap between C- and C terrans is huge in terms of how quickly one gets into the late game. It usually takes me 12 minutes to get into the late game and still survive while C's just go straight into macro mode in like 10.


and what exactly accounts for thsi difference?

i have noticed i play better if i add a lot more facs when when i set up my 3rd. i used to go ~7 fac when i took a 3rd, but now i go 9-10 fac and add 2-3 more when i have a 4th and im moving out with a maxed push
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
May 25 2010 00:41 GMT
#17
On May 25 2010 08:27 OMin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2010 07:47 imBLIND wrote:
The thing that holds me back at C- is the amount of time it takes for me to settle into macro mode. C- terrans take a rather long time to comfortably settle into the late-game and stay in the midgame phase where we're the weakest in terms of strength and econ. I feel that the gap between C- and C terrans is huge in terms of how quickly one gets into the late game. It usually takes me 12 minutes to get into the late game and still survive while C's just go straight into macro mode in like 10.


and what exactly accounts for thsi difference?

i have noticed i play better if i add a lot more facs when when i set up my 3rd. i used to go ~7 fac when i took a 3rd, but now i go 9-10 fac and add 2-3 more when i have a 4th and im moving out with a maxed push


It's all the little things, constant SCV production and sending them to mine quickly, never getting stuck on supply, not making too many turrets. There's not one specific thing you have to do, it's every aspect of macro and you need to practice it a lot.

One thing I do notice though is how low level players severely underestimate the damage caused by being supply blocked. You forget a depot, now your attack is delayed by that depot's build time, your economy is stunted because you couldn't make workers and the earlier on this happens the worse the knock-on effect is.
No I'm never serious.
doktorLucifer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States855 Posts
May 25 2010 09:00 GMT
#18
On May 25 2010 09:41 Nytefish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2010 08:27 OMin wrote:
On May 25 2010 07:47 imBLIND wrote:
The thing that holds me back at C- is the amount of time it takes for me to settle into macro mode. C- terrans take a rather long time to comfortably settle into the late-game and stay in the midgame phase where we're the weakest in terms of strength and econ. I feel that the gap between C- and C terrans is huge in terms of how quickly one gets into the late game. It usually takes me 12 minutes to get into the late game and still survive while C's just go straight into macro mode in like 10.


and what exactly accounts for thsi difference?

i have noticed i play better if i add a lot more facs when when i set up my 3rd. i used to go ~7 fac when i took a 3rd, but now i go 9-10 fac and add 2-3 more when i have a 4th and im moving out with a maxed push


It's all the little things, constant SCV production and sending them to mine quickly, never getting stuck on supply, not making too many turrets. There's not one specific thing you have to do, it's every aspect of macro and you need to practice it a lot.

One thing I do notice though is how low level players severely underestimate the damage caused by being supply blocked. You forget a depot, now your attack is delayed by that depot's build time, your economy is stunted because you couldn't make workers and the earlier on this happens the worse the knock-on effect is.


After playing several TvZ's/day in the last few weeks, as a D/D+ terran, I think I have a pretty good idea of how this totally fucks up what could be a 9 minute push or a solid defense against lurker ling busts, or just having a big enough army at the right time...
OMin
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States545 Posts
May 25 2010 10:01 GMT
#19
On May 25 2010 09:41 Nytefish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2010 08:27 OMin wrote:
On May 25 2010 07:47 imBLIND wrote:
The thing that holds me back at C- is the amount of time it takes for me to settle into macro mode. C- terrans take a rather long time to comfortably settle into the late-game and stay in the midgame phase where we're the weakest in terms of strength and econ. I feel that the gap between C- and C terrans is huge in terms of how quickly one gets into the late game. It usually takes me 12 minutes to get into the late game and still survive while C's just go straight into macro mode in like 10.


and what exactly accounts for thsi difference?

i have noticed i play better if i add a lot more facs when when i set up my 3rd. i used to go ~7 fac when i took a 3rd, but now i go 9-10 fac and add 2-3 more when i have a 4th and im moving out with a maxed push


It's all the little things, constant SCV production and sending them to mine quickly, never getting stuck on supply, not making too many turrets. There's not one specific thing you have to do, it's every aspect of macro and you need to practice it a lot.

One thing I do notice though is how low level players severely underestimate the damage caused by being supply blocked. You forget a depot, now your attack is delayed by that depot's build time, your economy is stunted because you couldn't make workers and the earlier on this happens the worse the knock-on effect is.


mind if i ask what rank you are? i do appreciate your comments

so in tvp, what would be considered "too many turrets"? if you scout/suspect reaver, i always see progamers going for a turret ring around their base, which takes ~5-6 turrets for full coverage.
also, in a normal macro tvp where you go for a fairly fast 3rd off 4ish facs and fast armory, would you cut scvs as your 3rd is being established to throw down facs? i feel that at this point, stopping scvs for a couple rounds is hardly going to dent your economy considering you are pretty much saturated... though im not sure what the effectw ould be like when the saturation is thinned out via scv transfer. thanks
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-25 10:23:36
May 25 2010 10:22 GMT
#20
On May 25 2010 19:01 OMin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2010 09:41 Nytefish wrote:
On May 25 2010 08:27 OMin wrote:
On May 25 2010 07:47 imBLIND wrote:
The thing that holds me back at C- is the amount of time it takes for me to settle into macro mode. C- terrans take a rather long time to comfortably settle into the late-game and stay in the midgame phase where we're the weakest in terms of strength and econ. I feel that the gap between C- and C terrans is huge in terms of how quickly one gets into the late game. It usually takes me 12 minutes to get into the late game and still survive while C's just go straight into macro mode in like 10.


and what exactly accounts for thsi difference?

i have noticed i play better if i add a lot more facs when when i set up my 3rd. i used to go ~7 fac when i took a 3rd, but now i go 9-10 fac and add 2-3 more when i have a 4th and im moving out with a maxed push


It's all the little things, constant SCV production and sending them to mine quickly, never getting stuck on supply, not making too many turrets. There's not one specific thing you have to do, it's every aspect of macro and you need to practice it a lot.

One thing I do notice though is how low level players severely underestimate the damage caused by being supply blocked. You forget a depot, now your attack is delayed by that depot's build time, your economy is stunted because you couldn't make workers and the earlier on this happens the worse the knock-on effect is.


mind if i ask what rank you are? i do appreciate your comments

so in tvp, what would be considered "too many turrets"? if you scout/suspect reaver, i always see progamers going for a turret ring around their base, which takes ~5-6 turrets for full coverage.
also, in a normal macro tvp where you go for a fairly fast 3rd off 4ish facs and fast armory, would you cut scvs as your 3rd is being established to throw down facs? i feel that at this point, stopping scvs for a couple rounds is hardly going to dent your economy considering you are pretty much saturated... though im not sure what the effectw ould be like when the saturation is thinned out via scv transfer. thanks


You can search me on iccup to see my past/current season rank, I use the same name.

Turret numbers and placement is something you should just copy and/or learn through practise. It's very map/position dependant but once you learn the general rules and turret range it becomes much easier.

Some people live by the mantra that you shouldn't cut SCVs until you're good enough to know when to do it. I think halting worker production is usually quite situational. Unless you see that players always cut SCV at that point then you're better off continuing to make workers.
No I'm never serious.
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