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(I am a GOLD Zerg. This is a rant... and I would love to be wrong about what I feel about Zerg play  )
Feel free to elaborate on the zerg play. I tried to play a whole day with Z and as the latest patch introduced:
Roach supply 2
it feels really weird in the opening and mid-game. I feel like roach is no more such a great cost EFFECTIVE unit.
You basically cannot effectively abuse burrow, not even the "move while burrow" ability in the early/mid game in any match-up, I feel.
After the day of trying to figure out how to play Z (eventhough I won quite a number of games), I find the Zerg play so boooooring, it would be better if there was at least more diversity in hive play (at least ultra vs. guardian).
I pretty much agree with Artosis's latest post about Zerg play in Korea and stuff, however, after the latest patch, I simply cannot find a place for Roach (I mean in the opening/mid-game/late game).
I played regularly both the other races and compared to them, Zerg race feels to me quite boring.
Question: is there a solid Zerg player who would be as good as Gretorp with T? I watched some Dimaga's latest replays and I dont like his play. I would love to see some solid macro oriented gameplay...
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Try using units that aren't the roach, then.
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Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines.
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On May 18 2010 08:31 YoureFired wrote:
Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines.
yes, I know about muta ling b-ling. The problem I have is that I would love Zerg to be more diverse in terms of each stage of the game, i.e. opening - mid - late...
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On May 18 2010 08:36 yann wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 08:31 YoureFired wrote:
Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines. yes, I know about muta ling b-ling. The problem I have is that I would love Zerg to be more diverse in terms of each stage of the game, i.e. opening - mid - late...
Before, Zerg was all about hydraroach so I don't mind the change
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For me its pretty diverse as it is now. Depending on how the game progresses I can go any unit combination not involving ultralisks. Im also using infestors in pretty much every match and banelings since they are so food-efficient. Doom dropping a terrans tank heavy army is so awesome.
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sc2 zerg is so broken. true dat....
broken = OP
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(@Ramen's 'broken = OP' comment)
I think that broken when referring to a race in this way can be taken to mean that the balance of that race is somehow faulty, not necessarily that the race as a whole is particularly OP. Certainly that is the way I have heard it used when referring to things such as Warhammer armies (3rd ed. Eldar was often called a broken list, because certain units were extremely cost effective, and others never worth taking), forces in other games, etc. It is often used when one aspect/unit of a race is overbearingly powerful , so that other aspects/units are not used.
In this case, the OP's argument is that the cost-effectiveness of the zerg Roach and Mutaling are so disparate that Mutaling feels essentially forced. In that way, Zerg is a broken race (though the emphasis here is on the weakness of some portion of the race, rather than the effectiveness of others, which I admit is usually the case).
In any event, I think 'broken' isn't a bad way to describe the state of Z play right now (maybe a bit too strong a word, but I certainly am seeing a lot less Roach play atm. Perhaps that's just some Zerg players way overcompensating for the Roach nerf)
I've actually found life harder since the Roach nerf, I was much more comfortable facing them than I am banelings & Muta 
Kev
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On May 18 2010 08:18 Saracen wrote:
Try using units that aren't the roach, then.
zerg's unit compo is a bit skewed imo
only viable units are what...
lings, hydra, roach (well.. not anymore to an extent) mutals, corruptors, broodlords
i dunno
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i didn't use roach even before the nerf... 2 boring T_T
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On May 18 2010 08:36 yann wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 08:31 YoureFired wrote:
Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines. yes, I know about muta ling b-ling. The problem I have is that I would love Zerg to be more diverse in terms of each stage of the game, i.e. opening - mid - late...
u want zerg to be more diverse? u got it! roach isn't as powerful as before so no more mass roaches, but the player is force to use a combination of different units for their army composition.
if this isn't for diversity i don't know what is. blizzard IS listening after all.
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watch idra's games. his play is solid and he's macro orientated
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On May 18 2010 10:16 MrStorkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 08:36 yann wrote:On May 18 2010 08:31 YoureFired wrote:
Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines. yes, I know about muta ling b-ling. The problem I have is that I would love Zerg to be more diverse in terms of each stage of the game, i.e. opening - mid - late... u want zerg to be more diverse? u got it! roach isn't as powerful as before so no more mass roaches, but the player is force to use a combination of different units for their army composition. if this isn't for diversity i don't know what is. blizzard IS listening after all.
while you're forced to use more units, the types of combinations you get to pick from number around one. for every stage of the game.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 18 2010 09:52 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 08:18 Saracen wrote:
Try using units that aren't the roach, then. zerg's unit compo is a bit skewed imo only viable units are what... lings, hydra, roach (well.. not anymore to an extent) mutals, corruptors, broodlords i dunno
Way to leave out banelings and infestors (which are also way more interesting to use than the other ones you listed).
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On May 18 2010 11:05 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:16 MrStorkie wrote:On May 18 2010 08:36 yann wrote:On May 18 2010 08:31 YoureFired wrote:
Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines. yes, I know about muta ling b-ling. The problem I have is that I would love Zerg to be more diverse in terms of each stage of the game, i.e. opening - mid - late... u want zerg to be more diverse? u got it! roach isn't as powerful as before so no more mass roaches, but the player is force to use a combination of different units for their army composition. if this isn't for diversity i don't know what is. blizzard IS listening after all. while you're forced to use more units, the types of combinations you get to pick from number around one. for every stage of the game.
Early game:
Mass Speedlings
Speedling/Baneling
Mass Roach
Mass Crawler/Fast Expand
Midgame:
Muta-Ling
Hydra-Roach
Mass Hydra
Hydra-Infestor
Mass Muta
Hydra-Roach-Infestor-Zergling-Corruptor (obviously the most effective strategy due to the fact that hydras can dish out damage, roaches tank, zerglings surround, infestor fungal growths and corruptor takes out any air/collosi)
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On May 18 2010 11:21 YoureFired wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 11:05 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:On May 18 2010 10:16 MrStorkie wrote:On May 18 2010 08:36 yann wrote:On May 18 2010 08:31 YoureFired wrote:
Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines. yes, I know about muta ling b-ling. The problem I have is that I would love Zerg to be more diverse in terms of each stage of the game, i.e. opening - mid - late... u want zerg to be more diverse? u got it! roach isn't as powerful as before so no more mass roaches, but the player is force to use a combination of different units for their army composition. if this isn't for diversity i don't know what is. blizzard IS listening after all. while you're forced to use more units, the types of combinations you get to pick from number around one. for every stage of the game. Early game: Mass Speedlings Speedling/Baneling Mass Roach Mass Crawler/Fast Expand Midgame: Muta-Ling Hydra-Roach Mass Hydra Hydra-Infestor Mass Muta Hydra-Roach-Infestor-Zergling-Corruptor (obviously the most effective strategy due to the fact that hydras can dish out damage, roaches tank, zerglings surround, infestor fungal growths and corruptor takes out any air/collosi)
i've yet to see these compositions work in every matchup without being gimmicky.
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On May 18 2010 11:25 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 11:21 YoureFired wrote:On May 18 2010 11:05 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:On May 18 2010 10:16 MrStorkie wrote:On May 18 2010 08:36 yann wrote:On May 18 2010 08:31 YoureFired wrote:
Just because you can't mass the roach anymore doesn't mean your zerg is dead. While I don't agree with the nerf, it doesn't stop the roach from being effective at holding off early zeal/marine aggression. Also, muta-ling is still insanely strong versus all races, you just have to mix in some banelings to take down zeals and marines. yes, I know about muta ling b-ling. The problem I have is that I would love Zerg to be more diverse in terms of each stage of the game, i.e. opening - mid - late... u want zerg to be more diverse? u got it! roach isn't as powerful as before so no more mass roaches, but the player is force to use a combination of different units for their army composition. if this isn't for diversity i don't know what is. blizzard IS listening after all. while you're forced to use more units, the types of combinations you get to pick from number around one. for every stage of the game. Early game: Mass Speedlings Speedling/Baneling Mass Roach Mass Crawler/Fast Expand Midgame: Muta-Ling Hydra-Roach Mass Hydra Hydra-Infestor Mass Muta Hydra-Roach-Infestor-Zergling-Corruptor (obviously the most effective strategy due to the fact that hydras can dish out damage, roaches tank, zerglings surround, infestor fungal growths and corruptor takes out any air/collosi) i've yet to see these compositions work in every matchup without being gimmicky. what is 'gimmicky' then? using spells = gimmicky? using multiple unit types = gimmicky? not just RAMMING TWO BIG ARMIES TOGETHER FUCK YEAH = gimmicky? hint: you couldn't do that in SCBW either, not sure how this is different
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mass speedlings, i don't think this has to be answered as to how impossible it is for it to work outside ZvZ
speedling/baneling. this doesnt work in ZvT except as a wall-in bust, and that's fairly all-in, or "gimmicky". ZvP you get facestomped by sentries, and also often puts you behind.
mass roach isnt a strong unit composition, as many early game compositions can counter this fine, as long as they're scouted. stalkers and marauders specifically. both are below tier 2. but not nearly as all in as the previous.
crawler expand? nowhere in this does this even mention a unit. and you will need units to supplement it.
out of these next 6 midgame compositions, 2 won't work in ZvT, 2 won't work in ZvP, and 4 won't work in ZvZ. add on that 2 don't work well in ZvT (as in their usage is extrememly limited), and 2 won't work well in ZvP either, and now the number of compositions is even more limited. finally, if we see that the final composition listed is something more like "build every fucking unit you get get" forces you to tech to everything lair level and to fully upgrade requires 3 evo chambers and a spire, the efficiency of the composition, while effective, decreases with game length.
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On May 18 2010 12:33 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
crawler expand? nowhere in this does this even mention a unit. and you will need units to supplement it.
out of these next 6 midgame compositions, 2 won't work in ZvT, 2 won't work in ZvP, and 4 won't work in ZvZ. add on that 2 don't work well in ZvT (as in their usage is extrememly limited), and 2 won't work well in ZvP either, and now the number of compositions is even more limited. finally, if we see that the final composition listed is something more like "build every fucking unit you get get" forces you to tech to everything lair level and to fully upgrade requires 3 evo chambers and a spire, the efficiency of the composition, while effective, decreases with game length.
Crawler expand works fine dude. You might remember that early game ZvT is more or less expand and sunk up to stop marine medic rush.
You want one unit combo to work in all matchups? How'd that go for you in BW?
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On May 18 2010 12:38 TimmyMac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 12:33 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
crawler expand? nowhere in this does this even mention a unit. and you will need units to supplement it.
out of these next 6 midgame compositions, 2 won't work in ZvT, 2 won't work in ZvP, and 4 won't work in ZvZ. add on that 2 don't work well in ZvT (as in their usage is extrememly limited), and 2 won't work well in ZvP either, and now the number of compositions is even more limited. finally, if we see that the final composition listed is something more like "build every fucking unit you get get" forces you to tech to everything lair level and to fully upgrade requires 3 evo chambers and a spire, the efficiency of the composition, while effective, decreases with game length.
Crawler expand works fine dude. You might remember that early game ZvT in BW is more or less expand and sunk up to stop marine medic rush. You want one unit combo to work in all matchups? How'd that go for you in BW?
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fuuuck im new at this shit
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Disclaimer: this is from my experiences only
The problem with zerg is that they feel very limited in strategy. I know many of you will argue all those strats, but the simple fact is that zerg rarely want to stray from a certain path.
Early game is lings, with banelings if your opponent masses lings/zealots/marines. Otherwise, banelings are not really used. Roaches, have lost their role as the anti-zealot,rine,ling to the baneling as their new supply cost has forced them into more midgame.
Midgame gives you the option of going for a muta harass (which people are getting better at stopping) and hydralisks. Hydralisks are far better bang for your buck unless your opponent has no air defence. Roaches can be added in here, but hydras do the job better. Infestors are a waste of gas. They arent bad units, but I would much rather 3 more hydralisks.
Lategame is broodlords and corruptors. Simple as that. Ultras suck.
There is very little diversity in strategy and little in the way of interesting mechanics in the zerg. Most of the time, zerg is just a-move an army and hope it wins.
Roaches - Are just a basic attacking unit which shares the same role as a hydra, with less range and no AA capabilities. Because of the nerf, they feel more like tier 2 units than tier 1. Their ability to move underground is soo expensive and soo situational, that it feels like a very big gamble to go for it. Roaches just dont have a defined role in the zerg army.
Hydralisks - Are just a-move killing machines. They are too versatile, and only only 1 unit from each race counters them effectively.
Infestor - Has crappy spells and gets blown up very fast. Is too gas intensive for what it brings to the battle. Lacks any ability that could be used creatively
Ultralisks - Cant get into the battle, and therefore cannot compete with broodlords
Overseer - Has a useless spell. This unit should be a zerg caster with use.
hmm, well they are just some of my thoughts on the zerg. Didnt mean for this post to be a big one, but now that Ive typed it all up, I guess I should at least post it
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EPT
