• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 00:33
CET 06:33
KST 14:33
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Rongyi Cup S3 - RO16 Preview3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational10SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)19Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7
StarCraft 2
General
Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued StarCraft 2 not at the Esports World Cup 2026 Stellar Fest "01" Jersey Charity Auction PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey! Rongyi Cup S3 - RO16 Preview
Tourneys
Arc Raiders Cat Bed Map Guide OSC Season 13 World Championship $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) $70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone
Brood War
General
Gypsy to Korea [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Which foreign pros are considered the best? BW General Discussion BW AKA finder tool
Tourneys
Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Navigating the Risks and Rew…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1342 users

Observations on Lower Level ZvZ Cheese

Blogs > Alegzandur
Post a Reply
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 05:51 GMT
#1
***Read this so you don't waste your time: I talk about why a certain strategy doesn't work, where I think it originated from, and what I think would work (these are all opinions)***

So I recently joined the beta (thank you vvvVec and TL!) and was placed in Gold after my placement matches, I'm not particularly proud of that since my goal was platinum but this might appeal to some of the lower ranked Zergs out there since I feel my style of play is relatively easy to pick-up (I only have 50 - 60 average APM).

Anyway on to the main discussion, recently I've been seeing a trend where Zergs try to do some weird 10 pool build where they immediately build Spine Crawlers in their opponents base and follow that up with early lings. This does not work. This strategy seems kind of like the Zerg's version of a reaper-bunker rush except the advantage of the bunker rush is that if it is placed nicely in the Zerg's natural, there's a chance he wont spot it until it's too late. I've played two straight games against this strategy and I've opened with two different builds, both times it was ridiculously easy to defend and it was gg shortly after.

Now, the most popular Zerg opener at the moment is the 14-pool. What this means is that by the time the Cheesing Zerg places his spine crawlers in your base your spawning pool is still probably halfway from being built. You're fucked right? Wrong. Calm down; the thing to remember is that you defend against this strategy the same way you defend against a scouted bunker rush, not with lings but with drones. 3 drones attacking a spine crawler being built is enough to take it down before it even hatches. When you've successfully destroyed his spine crawler/s then you can comfortably go back to mining and know that your lings will be out in time to defend against his. GG. Now the person who tried to do this to me actually put down 2 spine crawlers and micro'd a bit where he even cancelled one and put it down again. What happened was that he placed his remade spine crawler down the same time my spawning pool hatched. When this happens you don't even have to use your drones anymore, send them back to the minerals from whence they came and relax because your 6 lings will hatch with enough time to take out that crawler before it even finishes! Again, gg.

Now another build I like to do in ZvZ's is an Overpool build where I get my pool out only a tad bit later than a 10-pool (because I make an overlord first) but I have a stronger economy because of it. When they try to do this strategy it's even more of a joke since my lings will be out in time to stop the crawlers, defend against their incoming lings, and secure me a lead; again gg. Now I think what we're seeing is a rough evolution of the 9-pool with speed which was a very dangerous build back in SC1. I say this because of the timing of the pool and because sunken rushes back then came much much earlier usually. The reason why I think the ling speed was replaced with spine crawlers now is because the gas harvest rate is much slower in SC2 with only 1 extractor. Even if a really early zergling speed build is created (I'm not talking about the 2 hatch build EU Zergs seem to be doing) I don't think it'll work for a few reasons: smarter pathing which negates the advantage micro players used to have, Queens which own zerglings in small numbers or with support, and shorter reinforcement distance.

Now it crossed my mind if this strategy would be much more effective if the crawlers were placed at the same time as when the zerglings come in. Although I have no games to show it, I don't think this would work because the non-cheesing Zerg's early lings should be able to defend against the cheesing Zerg's lings and reinforcements should take care of the spine crawlers. Does this mean it's impossible to cheese in a ZvZ now? No, I just think most people are going about it the wrong way. The way to cheese is and always will be the 6-pool for me. Against the ever popular 14-pool and especially on maps with possible short rush distances like Steppes of War, Lost Temple, and Metalopolis, this build should allow you to get your lings in their base before their pool is finished and allow you to deal significant damage to take the game.

I like the way Zerg openers are right now, the way I see it it's like rock-paper-scissors where a 6-pool gets countered by an Overpool, an Overpool gets countered by a 14-pool, and a 14-pool gets countered by a 6-pool. In each situation, choosing the right build will allow you to get an economic advantage over your opponent that you can use to take the game in the end. Anyway, that's it for now. I doubt the higher-ranked players encounter this strategy but I'd still like to hear what you think. Go ahead and disagree with me but do it respectfully please since I understand that these are all just my opinions anyway. Happy cheesing everyone!

spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
May 10 2010 06:58 GMT
#2
If you want to cheese in zvz, go 15 hatch. Yeah that's right, it's an economical cheese.
Alternatively, 6 pool and attack together with all your drones.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 07:18 GMT
#3
Yea I figured a fast expand would counter the conventional 14-pool but it's risky as always and I haven't seen it enough times to give my opinion.
Quesadilla
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States1814 Posts
May 10 2010 08:44 GMT
#4
Revolutionary concept right here:

Scout at 10.
Make a lot of friends. Wear good clothes. Drink good beer. Love a nice girl.
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 09:58 GMT
#5
You mean to defend against a 6-pool? Pointless to do that when I Overpool though and I normally do that when I 14-pool just to make sure he isn't cheesing.
DonkeyPunch
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia51 Posts
May 10 2010 09:59 GMT
#6
i dont see how a 15 hatch is an eco cheese ...i mean your zerg... they are pretty much designed to to mass and swarm your opponent so its more of a standard play imo.
fast protoss laser ship thing rush - dicember
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 10:03 GMT
#7
I think he means it's unorthodox in a ZvZ since those match-ups in SC1 were usually decided by who was more aggressive.
Papvin
Profile Joined May 2009
Denmark610 Posts
May 10 2010 12:14 GMT
#8
On May 10 2010 18 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              10 2010 18      end_of_the_skype_highlighting:59 DonkeyPunch wrote:
i dont see how a 15 hatch is an eco cheese ...i mean your zerg... they are pretty much designed to to mass and swarm your opponent so its more of a standard play imo.

It is cheese, since if it gets scouted early enough, an early pool will obliterate it.
"It's criminally negligent to dismiss Rock's contributions to other people's careers", Dukethegold
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 27m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 228
SortOf 58
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 62
ZergMaN 52
Shine 49
Hm[arnc] 34
Noble 33
Icarus 11
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm214
League of Legends
JimRising 814
C9.Mang0505
Counter-Strike
taco 472
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King216
Other Games
summit1g6953
KnowMe177
monkeys_forever119
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1258
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 108
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 45
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1122
• Stunt396
Upcoming Events
RongYI Cup
5h 27m
Clem vs ShoWTimE
Zoun vs Bunny
Big Brain Bouts
11h 27m
Percival vs Gerald
Serral vs MaxPax
RongYI Cup
1d 5h
SHIN vs Creator
Classic vs Percival
OSC
1d 7h
BSL 21
1d 9h
RongYI Cup
2 days
Maru vs Cyan
Solar vs Krystianer
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
BSL 21
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-20
OSC Championship Season 13
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Escore Tournament S1: W5
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025

Upcoming

Acropolis #4 - TS4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Nations Cup 2026
Tektek Cup #1
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.