• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:55
CET 17:55
KST 01:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled4Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains12Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block4GSL CK - New online series18BSL Season 224
StarCraft 2
General
Buy THC Vape Carts In Dubai telegram @greenplug420 BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Terran AddOns placement
Tourneys
https://www.facebook.com/BubaSocks.Official/ [GSL CK] Team Maru vs. Team herO WardiTV Team League Season 10 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 516 Specter of Death Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Gypsy to Korea Are you ready for ASL 21? Hype VIDEO
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL22] Open Qualifiers & Ladder Tours IPSL Spring 2026 is here! ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread No Man's Sky (PS4 and PC) Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Mexico's Drug War NASA and the Private Sector Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread General nutrition recommendations Cricket [SPORT] TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Gaming-Related Deaths
TrAiDoS
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3097 users

Observations on Lower Level ZvZ Cheese

Blogs > Alegzandur
Post a Reply
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 05:51 GMT
#1
***Read this so you don't waste your time: I talk about why a certain strategy doesn't work, where I think it originated from, and what I think would work (these are all opinions)***

So I recently joined the beta (thank you vvvVec and TL!) and was placed in Gold after my placement matches, I'm not particularly proud of that since my goal was platinum but this might appeal to some of the lower ranked Zergs out there since I feel my style of play is relatively easy to pick-up (I only have 50 - 60 average APM).

Anyway on to the main discussion, recently I've been seeing a trend where Zergs try to do some weird 10 pool build where they immediately build Spine Crawlers in their opponents base and follow that up with early lings. This does not work. This strategy seems kind of like the Zerg's version of a reaper-bunker rush except the advantage of the bunker rush is that if it is placed nicely in the Zerg's natural, there's a chance he wont spot it until it's too late. I've played two straight games against this strategy and I've opened with two different builds, both times it was ridiculously easy to defend and it was gg shortly after.

Now, the most popular Zerg opener at the moment is the 14-pool. What this means is that by the time the Cheesing Zerg places his spine crawlers in your base your spawning pool is still probably halfway from being built. You're fucked right? Wrong. Calm down; the thing to remember is that you defend against this strategy the same way you defend against a scouted bunker rush, not with lings but with drones. 3 drones attacking a spine crawler being built is enough to take it down before it even hatches. When you've successfully destroyed his spine crawler/s then you can comfortably go back to mining and know that your lings will be out in time to defend against his. GG. Now the person who tried to do this to me actually put down 2 spine crawlers and micro'd a bit where he even cancelled one and put it down again. What happened was that he placed his remade spine crawler down the same time my spawning pool hatched. When this happens you don't even have to use your drones anymore, send them back to the minerals from whence they came and relax because your 6 lings will hatch with enough time to take out that crawler before it even finishes! Again, gg.

Now another build I like to do in ZvZ's is an Overpool build where I get my pool out only a tad bit later than a 10-pool (because I make an overlord first) but I have a stronger economy because of it. When they try to do this strategy it's even more of a joke since my lings will be out in time to stop the crawlers, defend against their incoming lings, and secure me a lead; again gg. Now I think what we're seeing is a rough evolution of the 9-pool with speed which was a very dangerous build back in SC1. I say this because of the timing of the pool and because sunken rushes back then came much much earlier usually. The reason why I think the ling speed was replaced with spine crawlers now is because the gas harvest rate is much slower in SC2 with only 1 extractor. Even if a really early zergling speed build is created (I'm not talking about the 2 hatch build EU Zergs seem to be doing) I don't think it'll work for a few reasons: smarter pathing which negates the advantage micro players used to have, Queens which own zerglings in small numbers or with support, and shorter reinforcement distance.

Now it crossed my mind if this strategy would be much more effective if the crawlers were placed at the same time as when the zerglings come in. Although I have no games to show it, I don't think this would work because the non-cheesing Zerg's early lings should be able to defend against the cheesing Zerg's lings and reinforcements should take care of the spine crawlers. Does this mean it's impossible to cheese in a ZvZ now? No, I just think most people are going about it the wrong way. The way to cheese is and always will be the 6-pool for me. Against the ever popular 14-pool and especially on maps with possible short rush distances like Steppes of War, Lost Temple, and Metalopolis, this build should allow you to get your lings in their base before their pool is finished and allow you to deal significant damage to take the game.

I like the way Zerg openers are right now, the way I see it it's like rock-paper-scissors where a 6-pool gets countered by an Overpool, an Overpool gets countered by a 14-pool, and a 14-pool gets countered by a 6-pool. In each situation, choosing the right build will allow you to get an economic advantage over your opponent that you can use to take the game in the end. Anyway, that's it for now. I doubt the higher-ranked players encounter this strategy but I'd still like to hear what you think. Go ahead and disagree with me but do it respectfully please since I understand that these are all just my opinions anyway. Happy cheesing everyone!

spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
May 10 2010 06:58 GMT
#2
If you want to cheese in zvz, go 15 hatch. Yeah that's right, it's an economical cheese.
Alternatively, 6 pool and attack together with all your drones.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 07:18 GMT
#3
Yea I figured a fast expand would counter the conventional 14-pool but it's risky as always and I haven't seen it enough times to give my opinion.
Quesadilla
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States1814 Posts
May 10 2010 08:44 GMT
#4
Revolutionary concept right here:

Scout at 10.
Make a lot of friends. Wear good clothes. Drink good beer. Love a nice girl.
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 09:58 GMT
#5
You mean to defend against a 6-pool? Pointless to do that when I Overpool though and I normally do that when I 14-pool just to make sure he isn't cheesing.
DonkeyPunch
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia51 Posts
May 10 2010 09:59 GMT
#6
i dont see how a 15 hatch is an eco cheese ...i mean your zerg... they are pretty much designed to to mass and swarm your opponent so its more of a standard play imo.
fast protoss laser ship thing rush - dicember
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 10 2010 10:03 GMT
#7
I think he means it's unorthodox in a ZvZ since those match-ups in SC1 were usually decided by who was more aggressive.
Papvin
Profile Joined May 2009
Denmark610 Posts
May 10 2010 12:14 GMT
#8
On May 10 2010 18 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              10 2010 18      end_of_the_skype_highlighting:59 DonkeyPunch wrote:
i dont see how a 15 hatch is an eco cheese ...i mean your zerg... they are pretty much designed to to mass and swarm your opponent so its more of a standard play imo.

It is cheese, since if it gets scouted early enough, an early pool will obliterate it.
"It's criminally negligent to dismiss Rock's contributions to other people's careers", Dukethegold
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 5m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 655
Harstem 196
LamboSC2 168
trigger 83
Livibee 41
RushiSC 16
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 28099
BeSt 637
Light 217
Rush 196
IntoTheRainbow 79
Backho 38
Rock 38
NotJumperer 34
Mind 33
scan(afreeca) 19
[ Show more ]
GoRush 16
Dota 2
Gorgc5674
qojqva1798
Counter-Strike
fl0m4700
byalli320
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor152
Other Games
gofns3799
Grubby2001
B2W.Neo741
Beastyqt649
tarik_tv532
DeMusliM242
KnowMe134
Liquid`VortiX87
ArmadaUGS56
QueenE53
BananaSlamJamma35
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream18825
Other Games
gamesdonequick1035
BasetradeTV84
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 59
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota243
League of Legends
• Nemesis2975
• Jankos1858
• TFBlade761
• Shiphtur241
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 5m
CranKy Ducklings
17h 5m
RSL Revival
17h 5m
MaxPax vs Rogue
Clem vs Bunny
WardiTV Team League
19h 5m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d
Patches Events
1d
BSL
1d 3h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 17h
RSL Revival
1d 17h
ByuN vs SHIN
Maru vs Krystianer
WardiTV Team League
1d 19h
[ Show More ]
BSL
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
WardiTV Team League
3 days
GSL
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
WardiTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-12
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
BSL Season 22
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Elite League 2026
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
2026 Changsha Offline CUP
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
NationLESS Cup
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.