• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 04:42
CET 10:42
KST 18:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
What's the best tug of war? The Grack before Christmas Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2?
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recommended FPV games (post-KeSPA) BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How Does UI/UX Design Influence User Trust? Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2003 users

Unit Composition in SC2?

Blogs > Musoeun
Post a Reply
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
April 20 2010 19:47 GMT
#1
Most of the complaints I'm seeing about SC2 are based, in the end, on the question of unit composition. From "Roaches are imba," and, "You can just make marauders and win," to people complaining about the game breaking down into hard counters, a lot of people seem upset at the state of the game. Obviously Nony's post on metagame addresses this problem to some extent, but I ran into a new form of the argument I just want to think about for a minute.

Someone I know claimed that SC2 is entirely counter-based (and will stay this way forever) because of two things:

1) Units build faster
2) There are no "solid" compositions that are good against everything.


Now, I'm not sure what #1 has to do with the question. Faster unit build (for Protoss especially) does mean specific harass strats are easier to shut down (by building the counter unit to, say, Banshees), and I guess it could also mean that if you win a battle really badly you can bring in specific counters to mop up the units that are left? But I really don't understand how build times affect the question at all. Yet, if your opponent only has tanks in BW then it's easier to counter that (because lings build ridiculously fast) than it is to counter m&m since you need muta, lurker, defiler, or some combination. But I don't think this is the key to the problem. Maybe someone enlighten me?

#2 though, I get. Or at least I understand the perception that leads to the claim. What I don't think people understand though is that it is (probably) entirely a matter of game history: the beta's only a few months old. Players haven't had time to work out balanced compositions yet, and Blizzard hasn't had time to observe the game and adjust balance for that consideration.

Consider the original Brood War beta: people went m&m in every matchup, tanks were (only?) for support and drops, and vultures even rarer support - or at least that's the idea you get from reading the old battle reports. Even when (T)BoxeR revolutionized Terran, at first he was still using marines in those dropships to wreck stuff. Protoss had the hard counters here: storm and reavers > all. And that might be why Protoss dominated the early days of Broodwar: they came out on top of the counter battle every time.

This isn't to say people weren't experimenting. Some dude named Zileas made shuttle-reaver micro famous right off the bat, this wasn't a weird discovery years later. People were playing with early expand builds, mutalisk harass - if you want a look at the early days of Broodwar, go read through the BattleReports.com early archives. (It's also a website well worth your time and effort if you can tear yourself away from TL. ) All sorts of stuff going on, and lots of rock-paper-scissors counter thoughts, but not much in the way of pre-determined cut-and-dried build orders and today's set metagame and pre-determined build-order play that only artists like (T)BoxeR and certified nut-jobs like (P)Horang2 can disturb.

Now consider the SC2 beta. We have people trying all sorts of weird stuff, from roach-only to no-roach Zerg builds, trying to make Phoenixes work, "cheesing" with warp gates and reapers, going straight marauder with minimal (usually ghost) backup, etc. etc. There is no such thing right now, as far as I can tell, as standard play in the sense we have it in BW. No 1-rax expand builds, except so far as we could do it in BW and it seems to work here: but timings haven't been perfected. Very little aggressive /army/ usage, despite the prevalence of harass. Very few attempts at map control via army presence, meaning less chance of battles testing your compositions. Most battles (from what I've seen) are straight up base attacks, which tend to be either inconclusive (positionings haven't really been worked out yet) or vastly favor one opponent often leading to a straight GG. In short, we haven't yet done the SC2 equivalent of proving that m&m doesn't work well against Protoss unless you're timing push stalwart (T)fOrGG. (Of course, small maps are playing into this a little bit, just like they did in the BW beta.)

What I'm seeing right now in SC2 - especially from people who are complaining - is a thought-process that would look like this if applied to BW (and looks a lot like some of the stuff you can imagine happening in the BW beta):

Game 1:
A: "Well Marines have great DPS and with Medics they're durable so I'm going to try to make that my base."
B: "Ah, marines, let's mass up reavers to counter."
A: "Hmm, he's got reavers out, I need more range, Tanks!"
Tank + M&M rolls, Player B ggs and goes on the forum to scream about Terran imba.

Game 2
-repeat game 1- but when tanks come out:
Player B: "Wait, if I pick up the reavers with shuttles, they can stay alive longer!"
Player A gets massacred this time, and goes off to whine about reavers > all.

...and we could continue this through several more steps, but you get the point. It's going to take months (maybe years) of play, several patches, and a couple billion games of Starcraft 2 before we start actually getting to the point with this game where we know what are the "safe" builds and "strong" unit compositions.

So in the meantime, chill out! - and pardon my ranting.

*****
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
Kralic
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2628 Posts
April 20 2010 20:18 GMT
#2
Someone I know claimed that SC2 is entirely counter-based (and will stay this way forever) because of two things:

1) Units build faster
2) There are no "solid" compositions that are good against everything.


Because they cannot change the stats of damage in the beta... Forever is a terrible word to use. Every patch they have been taking away the bonus damage slowly which is what currently makes the counters.
Brood War forever!
Axonn
Profile Joined April 2010
Croatia287 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 21:03:40
April 20 2010 21:01 GMT
#3
I understand what you are trying to say and I appreciate the effort but there is a major difference in SC2 than in the brood war which makes it more "rock-paper-scissors" and that is +dmg to armored/light. For example the immortal 50 to armored and 20 light? So yeah it kills heavy stuff fast but it kills light thins slow? There was NO SUCH THINGS in BW. You said it yourself that it was "reavers > all" it was not reavers>tanks but zerglings > reavers. Raever also kills lings in one shot... deals same damage (micro is something else). The only thing I can find similar is dragoon damage, it deals sometimes 10, sometimes 15, sometimes 20, but it is not big difference (at least not as 20-50 is). That is the "problem" of SC2 in my eyes but my opinion is that THAT is the key of difference between 2 StarCrafts. They need to make a new game not just copy old one and put some new graphics, and yeah pwn. No. The Blizzard looks like it's trying to make balanced game but different than the old one. And that brings us to the topic... unit composition... scout and pick a counter composition if you see paper pull the scissors out and make some paper in case he gets some rock. That is going to happen with SC2. But that is only my opinion...
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
April 20 2010 21:09 GMT
#4
The following units all had varying damage based on damage and armor type:

Firebat
Vulture
Tank
Goliath (air)
Wraith (air)
Ghost
Missile Turret

Dragoon
Arbiter
Corsair

Hydralisk
Infested Terran
Devourer

Also, Sunken Colonies and Photon Cannon used to do explosive damage (subject to modifiers) but this was changed.

Games can be patched. Blizzard knows the pattern they're looking at.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
DoomBacon
Profile Joined February 2010
United States165 Posts
April 20 2010 21:15 GMT
#5
On April 21 2010 06:09 Musoeun wrote:
The following units all had varying damage based on damage and armor type:

Firebat
Vulture
Tank
Goliath (air)
Wraith (air)
Ghost
Missile Turret

Dragoon
Arbiter
Corsair

Hydralisk
Infested Terran
Devourer

Also, Sunken Colonies and Photon Cannon used to do explosive damage (subject to modifiers) but this was changed.

Games can be patched. Blizzard knows the pattern they're looking at.

I find it amusing how many people seem to have forgotten that BW units have damage modifiers...
*Watches a vulture point blank with a sieged tank poke at it for a few mins*
/boggle
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
April 20 2010 21:27 GMT
#6
Firebats had a ginormous spread. They did 16+s on zerglings and small units, but only did 4 on large units and buildings. If you tack up 4 to 20 to match the immortal, the 16 would become 80. 20-80 is a big spread.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 19m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 160
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 31337
Rain 1753
firebathero 552
GuemChi 399
BeSt 328
Leta 251
Mong 229
Soma 198
Rush 113
Zeus 100
[ Show more ]
sorry 64
JulyZerg 60
Barracks 59
Sharp 56
ggaemo 42
yabsab 33
Mind 31
Shine 30
NotJumperer 27
PianO 25
ZergMaN 21
Bale 11
Shinee 9
SilentControl 9
League of Legends
JimRising 550
C9.Mang0411
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1410
Other Games
summit1g6850
XaKoH 328
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV71
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 33
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling90
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
7h 19m
Elazer vs Nicoract
Reynor vs Scarlett
Replay Cast
14h 19m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Krystianer vs TBD
TriGGeR vs SKillous
Percival vs TBD
ByuN vs Nicoract
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.