|
Note that I'm not posting this in the SC2 forum because I don't want it to get deleted. I HOPE (and think) that its ok that this is posted here.
Hey everyone my name is Whiplash, I am a rank 4 random plat player (could easily hold rank 1 if I just played protoss but who cares about that) that has done many events such as craftcup, omfg, shoutcraft, and am part of vT gaming (http://www.vtgaming.net). I would like to share my thoughts on the current balance issues in Starcraft 2 at this point in time. Everything that I say is back from personal experience from both sides of the balance. I have the most experience with protoss so many of my balance issues will be from their perspective.
As of now, Zerg is the most powerful race, then Protoss, then Terran. The main issue with zerg is that they have a huge production ability mid game and can generally drone hard early game with ease. I am directing the balance issue from a Protoss's perspective, not a Terrans. Popular builds like 4 gate and 3 gate robo have been effective at forcing zerg to get more units early on but now GOOD zergs are learning how to block these timing pushes with relative ease and they leave the Protoss player behind if no economic damage is done. I am pretty sure that something with the inject larve mechanic needs to change to balance this out. In my opinion this is 1 of the most important issues in sc2 atm that I hope the next patch adjusts.
Zerg's mid game army lacks diversity. This is another obvious issue that everyone can see. Zerg's mid game army is roach/hydra in 90%+ of their games. Infestors are rarely used. Corruptors are only used to counter colossi. IN ZvT banelings are sometimes used, but the bulk of the army remains the same ol' Roach/Hydra. Honestly I am not a fan of the roach and I would love for it to be removed and replaced, but it needs to keep zerg balanced through out the game which is easier said then done. If they got an additional tier 2 unit, maybe a specialized unit morphed from the roach that was more of a support unit or caster (and they buffed infestor enough to make it hive tech), then maybe we could see some more diversity.
Protoss templar tech is inferior to robo tech in every matchup. Robos allow you to get observers and immortals off the bat, which are invaluable units in every matchup, and they come quicker then both high templar and dark templar. In addition, both templar units require a lot more gas and time to get operational, and are frail units compared to the colossi and immortal. The Dark Obelisk is a terrible design and it makes no sense to not have dark templar require the templar archives due to the relatively small use that the templar archives gets as of now. High templars are decent vs terran bio armies but in the end robo is just as, if not more effective. Storm is currently not that useful vs zerg due to roach's insane health and the fact that in realistic settings roaches generally only lose 1/3 of their health per storm wave. I don't understand why Blizzard wants Archons to be such a useless unit as well, with all the time and gas you spend just getting templar, it would be nice if Archons at least were a hard counter to 1 unit or had a unique ability.
If you want to make templar tech more appealing then it would be wise to buff storm's damage to make it a viable alternative to robo tech. I think buffing the damage and not bringing back it's old radius is the proper way to buff the spell. I think that Archon's splash radius needs to be significantly increased, so they can give protoss an actual decent counter versus mutalisks. Mutalisks are still a very good vs protoss, especially en masse (but not against terran, so buff a protoss unit to deal with mutalisks not nerf mutalisks). I was also thinking that if you want to give the archon and templars more viability then you could simply give archons a passive which regenerated their health whenever they were hit by templar storms. This would make them a decent tanking unit alternative to the immortal under the right circumstances and encourage more strategic play.
Mauradurs are still too all purpose. I think if their health gets nerfed by 5-10 (along with a nerf to how much stim does to them by 20 to 10) and change their base damage from 10(+10 armored) to 8(+12 armored) they would move away from being an "unholy trinity unit". I would support a change to the immortal's damage values as well if this happened.
Banshee range needs to be nerfed by 2, I believe it is at 6 now and it would be better around 4. It is a very powerful harassment unit that is also great vs ground units, even if they can attack air.
Phoenixes are a cool unit, but are terrible at their job: Anti air. The reason that the corsair was so good at it's job in SC1 is beacuse it had splash damage. Phoenixes need to get scout like anti air damage or splash damage so they can be a decent anti air unit. I wouldn't mind it losing graviton beam (will explain this next) for a support spell, survival spell, or a spell that makes it more effective vs air units.
Remove the Mothership already. Dustin Browder, this isn't battle for middle earth or CnC, we don't want super units. A lot of people want the Arbiter back, and I think something similar, maybe a Dark Arbiter, would be a good fit. Make it's role close to the Arbiter from sc1 (passive cloak and recall) but instead of wormhole give it graviton beam, except it isn't channeled and can pick up massive units.
Reduce force field's radius to about 2/3's of it's current radius. Force field is relied on a LOT by Protoss so I am not sure how bad the nerf will be, but I think it's necessary seeing how good it is at blocking ramps and splitting armies. An alternative would be to have the force fields destructible and have around 500 health.
Have Ultralisks start with the speed ability. I think Ultralisks are currently underused a lot and a buff like this would help them be more useful off the bat.
Make broodlords only spawn 1 broodling per attack. These units are insanely good and I win many battles just because I have a few of them in my army.
Reapers need a re-design. Originally reapers could throw mines on the ground that detonated after a few seconds, but this was taken out. It sounded really powerful but now Reapers have turned into a gimicky unit, used in early game harass and thats it. I think some type of later game upgrade to them to make them viable in mid or late game would be a welcome change to the unit in exchange for having them require an engineering bay to build or increase their build time.
Reduce the cybernetic core's build time by 5-10 seconds to help counter fast reapers. Not needed if Reaper build time or tech requirements is changed.
Move Nydus canal to tier 3, or have it require the infestor pit. I feel that this building is preventing protoss fast expand vs zerg from being viable at all, and a small change like this would allow more longer macro games to take place in this matchup and less 1 base protoss builds.
Set a max amount of scvs that can repair a planetary fortress at once. It is suppose to be a powerful defense structure, not indestructible.
Change storm's graphic to properly reflect the radius of the spell's damage.
That sums up the unit balances I can think of at the moment, but there are still some map issues which I feel are encouraging cheese, 1 base play, and gimmicky play which wouldn't be viable on a good, balanced map. Once map makers get their hands on the editor we can see some new, better balanced maps that I assume will be slightly larger then the average maps used now, more akin to the size of shakuras plateau if it was a 1v1 map. Maps with large ramps, expansions with multiple chokes, and bases with easily breakable back doors are in my opinion bad map design and encourage less solid play and more play focused on abusing map mechanics. Almost every map has something 1 race can abuse, and I hope blizz can get rid of these annoying problems.
That about sums it up, I think the game is awesome and fun to play and I know Blizzard will help make this a successful esport (assuming they heed the community's requests).
 
|
Thanks, nice post. :o
I was surprised you didn't ask for any nerfs to immortal/colossus, although I haven't played recently, it seems like from this you think they're too strong. Buffing templar without nerfing robo would just make TvP even harder again. I recall colossus damage being nerfed by like 3 once but they still do their job.
|
Very nice post, although i'd like to add a few things (HI /WAVE)
broodlords real problem imo is that they block unit pathing so that its impossible to get to them with out thors or air units. why not just give broodlings super low collision? or make all units push them out of the way when moving? 1 broodling would be fine, even if they nerfed it in this way as well i think.
ultra lisks are to big, and need to do something else, but ya starting with the speed upgrade would be nice.
i think storm does plunty of dmg already, however noone wants to form them into archons after use... so then you think "oh well these HT wernt very usefull... " if they buffed archon to be atleast 2/3 as effective as a real ultra (think sc1) then storm would be fine as a precurser to archons.
main thing i agree with here is the banshee range nerf, this way they would sit OVER marines instead of behind the pack. or nerf there dmg, as it stands banshee are just to good of a unit.
also on the topic of force fields, i think the main issue IS cutting armys in half, why can force field push units? if you had to preemtivly place them to block escape paths or to narry the battle field, would this work? as it stands, its not how big they are, cause they would just amass energy all game long still and just cast more, or not being able to rid your self of them, 150 health is maybe even still to much in your suggestion. force field needs a redesign in general, as its to effective for a tier 1.5 caster unit 50 energy spell. why not put it on the archon? 
*edit* ya nerf zerg production and give us something to do, PLEASE, i think this can easily be fixed by giving us a tier 1.5 caster (like ghost/sentry) instead of the roach, or move hydra to roach place (little weaker and faster moving like sc1) and give us a caster in its place while moving infestor to hive.
|
wow great post :D
"Move Nydus canal to tier 3, or have it require the infestor pit. I feel that this building is preventing protoss fast expand vs zerg from being viable at all, and a small change like this would allow more longer macro games to take place in this matchup and less 1 base protoss builds. "
REALLY like that part
you should at least post this on bnet forums (although I dunno if that will actually help at all since that place is so awful) since you didnt post it on the SC2 forum. a Blizzard dev definitely should read this.
|
I agree with most of that except adding +armoured to marauders. I'd rather weaken +armoured and then weaken the armoured ground units (like roach, stalker, immortal etc) a bit to compensate.
I also am surprised you think nydus is overpowered. It takes 150/200 to get up, and another 100/100 just to spawn an exit. That's just a ton of resources in the midgame, and your army will suffer for it. However I will give it a try sometime because fast expanding protosses have been giving me some real trouble, lately.
I think the planetary fortress is okay, even with repair. Repair is much slower in sc2 so it's not too bad.
Otherwise I agree with what you said almost to a tee.
|
(Note: Keep in mind I'm by no means a highly skilled or experienced player)
I have issue with your criticism of the maps. You say that multiple chokes at expansions and large ramps, etc. are bad. However, I think it hurts the game because it decreases variety. I don't want every map to be a LT clone with a few changes and a different tileset.
Also, what's wrong with cheese and gimmicky play? One, it makes games more exciting, and two, remember that this is a beta and they'll be less viable over time as the metagame develops.
|
On April 19 2010 12:12 Level10Peon wrote:
(Note: Keep in mind I'm by no means a highly skilled or experienced player)
I have issue with your criticism of the maps. You say that multiple chokes at expansions and large ramps, etc. are bad. However, I think it hurts the game because it decreases variety. I don't want every map to be a LT clone with a few changes and a different tileset.
Also, what's wrong with cheese and gimmicky play? One, it makes games more exciting, and two, remember that this is a beta and they'll be less viable over time as the metagame develops.
Check out the proscene's maps. There are some pretty unique maps but almost all of them follow certain fundamentals to keep the game balanced. Cheese and gimmicky play (like boxer's triple bunker rush) can be extremely fun to watch, but if he did it every game would people like that as much as long macro games? My point is that at the moment cheese is too easy to do with the current maps and some changes to maps while following some good balance rules will help promote an overall better metagame.
- Ideas I posted this on the bnet forums
|
Obvious bias is obvious. You say Terran is the weakest atm, but nerf them even more, while hugely buffing Protoss? I can tell as you being a Protoss player you nerfed Zerg & Terran and buffed Protoss.
Sorry, but if you buff HT Storm Terran will literally have to be two-times better than the Protoss player just to have a chance. You can't Mech against Protoss because of the Immortal. With a buff to storm it means you can't Bio either, so its like what the fuck do you want me to do? All air (Oh wait, you nerfed Banshee range....)?
Storm does not suck. You can warp in HT and immediately storm and two storms can take out 20+ bio units...
Bad balance suggestions.
My suggestion:
Terran:
Either scrap Reapers, or give them back their D8 Explosive charges as an upgrade. As it is now, Terran has way too many one-dimensional units (IE: Too many harass units). If you give them the D8 charges, then hugely nerf their building damage, and slightly buff their unit damage.
Un-nerf marine build time, and slightly lower reactor time. I'm fine with a 8+12 for Marauder. They seem too good, for their utility / cost.
Lower Tank gas cost by 25. Fix Hellions, by fixing their attack animation so they are microable like Vultures were. Make the Thor much smaller. Seriously these things are way too huge as are Ultralisks.
Fix Mules. They are way too good. Make them 25 Energy for 30 seconds of mining. So thats a 30 second mule nerf. Buff supply drop. Like to see 25 Energy for 4 supply, +2 armor, +50HP. I'd like to see an upgrade to speed up Medivacs also.
Protoss:
Lower HT gas cost by 25, but get rid of the Amulet upgrade.
Get rid of the all-or-nothing warp gate upgrade, and change it to where you upgrade each Gateway. Cost will be 50/50 for each one. Or perhaps lower the cost to 25/25, but make it so build times are increased by 15%. There needs to be some give and take, not just a superfluous always get this. I'm leaning on the latter of the suggestion.
Reduce Collo range upgrade from 3 to 2. 9 Range for something that does so much damage, is so mobile, and can cliff-walk, especially in conjunction with FF? Little too powerful.
I'd leave FF as is, same with spawn larvae.
Make Immortal hardened shield an upgrade. Not too expensive. 75/75 80 seconds, sounds about right. Or, you can keep the shield, but increase build time. 20 seconds is way too goddamn fast.
I would buff Stalkers a little again. Instead of +1(+0) upgrades, back to +1(+1).
I would also buff Carriers, by either making it a little cheaper to get to, or make them a little more powerful. Hardly ever see them.
If DT's are going to take quite a bit to get to, at least make them cheaper. 100 Gas instead of 125, sounds good.
Zerg:
Move Nydus to Tier 3, and lower Overlord transport to 150/150.
Bring Lurkers back FFS!
Increase Infestor HP, or give them some armor. Buff fungal growth. It is nice to use as a sort of stasis, but up the damage by like 20, but make it like Plague where the unit is left with 1 HP. Instead of completely shutting down movement, make it a slow. Add in Tier 3 spell upgrades:
Darkswarm -- Enough said.
Pheramon sacs - 10% attack speed to friendly units under area of effect.
Reduce Ultralisk size and collision big time. Have them all ready upgraded with speed.
Nerf Broodlord HP. Reduce broodling amount by half, but increase broodling damage twice it is now. I would recommend doing the latter before nerfing HP to see how it turns out. If they are still a bit too powerful then add a slight HP nerf also.
Other than that, everything seems fine.
|
nice post. totally agree with you for buffing the terran. the templar in sc1 were the backbone of the toss army. and even in the sc story, templar were the highest rank in the toss caste (or something like that) having them so weak is an insult to the protoss. also archons. wtf are they here for? and 100% agree with the dark shrine thing. 250 gas and it takes like a year to get up.
|
On April 19 2010 12:42 DexterHGTourney wrote:
suggestions
I agree with everything you said...except dark swarm
now really, with the current state of zerg, balancing dark swarm would be nigh impossible
|
I like all of those suggestions, but the problems are deeper than that.
You can't just nerf/buff a good amount of units and hope for balance.
My thoughts:
- Zerg definitely needs more diversity, and it does seem like they're missing some kind of support unit. Infestors right now are too fragile to be used effectively (compared to HT's and medivacs/ghosts).
- Banshees are too strong, but the rest of terran armies are too weak against protoss. The only hope of taking on a protoss army late game right now (at least the way I play toss with immortal/HT/stalker/zealot) is to combine ur MMM with banshees/vikings/ravens and taking out obs, cloaking banshees, and setting PDD's. However, feedback completely nullifies banshees/ravens so it's hard to give banshees less while giving other terran units more...
- Smartcasting makes HT extremely easy to use once ur getting ur 3rd expo up, especially if u skipped colossus (in pvt/pvz). their damage doesn't auto kill the staple marauder/hydra/roach armies, but it does its job as a support caster as the ghost does. I find mixing 5+ HT with my immortal/stalker/zealot/sentry ball very effective
- phoenixes are still shit yes, they need a better ability or splash... but again, this will be a change that will change the delicate balance between the races, so i don't know how I feel about this
- mothership should be removed obv
- forcefields are overpowered on their own, but terran and zerg have *somewhat* found ways around it in the right circumstances. The problem is they are available and spammable way too early, before terran/zerg have the right units/casters to nullify this. I don't know about lowering the radius (you won't be able to block your ramp anymore - which is a key function of how the matchups work especially in PvP and PvZ with early aggression).
- I do think archons should get splash back, but I rarely use them right now so again, delicate balance between races. Maybe make this some kind of colossus counter right now, as in late game pvp is the worst thing to watch with colossi vs colossi and units melting in between.
My comments are obviously subjective and biased, and it's a bit late so I might not be thinking coherently right now, but we need to give SC2 more time before considering the usefulness of each unit. I mean, PDD was rarely used just a couple of weeks ago, and now ravens are becoming much more useful (e.g. I think it was qxc vs machine on metalopolis? in triple strike finals today)
|
On April 19 2010 12:15 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 12:12 Level10Peon wrote:
(Note: Keep in mind I'm by no means a highly skilled or experienced player)
I have issue with your criticism of the maps. You say that multiple chokes at expansions and large ramps, etc. are bad. However, I think it hurts the game because it decreases variety. I don't want every map to be a LT clone with a few changes and a different tileset.
Also, what's wrong with cheese and gimmicky play? One, it makes games more exciting, and two, remember that this is a beta and they'll be less viable over time as the metagame develops. Check out the proscene's maps. There are some pretty unique maps but almost all of them follow certain fundamentals to keep the game balanced. Cheese and gimmicky play (like boxer's triple bunker rush) can be extremely fun to watch, but if he did it every game would people like that as much as long macro games? My point is that at the moment cheese is too easy to do with the current maps and some changes to maps while following some good balance rules will help promote an overall better metagame. - Ideas I posted this on the bnet forums
Okay. At first I thought you were some macro purist type (coughidracough). Anyway, though I'm not in the beta yet, from the numerous replays I've watched, I basically agree with everything else you said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
