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What is it that makes Flash so good? All the players at the top are indisputably S-class players, yet Flash has made a habit of smashing the likes of Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Best,
and several of the top pros.
I feel that Flash has always been good, but it wasn't until recently that the kid started playing on a superhuman level. His results speak for themselves. AKs left and right, pwning S-class players as though they were B- or C+ players (mind you, I'm merely a D- on iccup), not to mention numerous prestigious titles and achievements. I like both Flash and Jaedong, but I have to admit that the poweroutage tarnished the Msl finals. And in the most recent GOM TV Classic, Julyzerg called Flash "chogosu" - super gosu.
Flash is just miles ahead of everyone else right now, with the possible exception of Jaedong. How does he do it?
Boxer might not be the bonjwa he once was, but the one reason he still has so many adoring fans is due to his creative plays. In his early days, Flash was a huge cheeser, so it really comes to no surprise that he anticipated Light's cheese in their most recent encounter, earmap or not. And despite all the accusations of map hacks and turtle terran, Flash has demonstrated that his talent and dedication are virtually unparalleled on the circuit.
If you've ever seen Flash lose a game (which seems to be becoming ever rarer), you can see that he hates losing. You witness the pain and desperation in his eyes as he types out "gg". It isn't surprising for Flash to cry after losing a game (as opposed to tears of joy following the OSL victory).
He also has contributed greatly to strategy. His immaculate mechanics, incredibly precise timings, and macro (the latter which, in TvZ, led to remarks such as "the lights never go out in Flash's barracks" - a reference to NYC, the city that never sleeps) are hallmarks of his playstyle. But Flash is also a creative player in the vein of Boxer. Flash is a modern-day revolutionist just like Bisu was in his heyday (even though nowadays all he's revolutionizing is his hair). Some might say the the quest to win has diminished Flash's creative potential, but I feel exactly the opposite to be true. The desire to win at all costs has led to innovative tactics and strategies not just limited to Flash's play but to progaming in general. As the level of the play has gone up, so has the creative juices emanating from the games. Just like a chess game, high level starcraft has hundreds of hidden tactical points and subtleties that can only add to its appeal.
Flash is, simply, a one of a kind player.
 
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So your saying he's the best because of his will to win and contribution to strategy?
Every one of those gamers has the "will to win", shark invented muta micro and I'm sure he's sad when he loses. What defines him as S class? You've just praised him, not explain him like the title suggests.
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sexy, makes me want to go gay for Flash
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if you plan to argue why flash is the best player ever, the LEAST you could do is to justify why he is better than Jaedong, rather than just saying
"Flash is just miles ahead of everyone else right now, with the possible exception of Jaedong."
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Flash is good because he keeps Nicole in his heart <333
Go Flash! But please lose to Stork in the finals so that Stork can have another OSL title!
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I think Flash needs more titles before he's the "Best Ever". When Nada has 6 and iloveoov and Jaedong each have 5, Flash's 2 start to look puny.
Not that I think the best player ever is the one with the most titles, just that he should be close to the top of the list. Flash isn't, yet.
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All this speaks as to why Flash is good.. but you haven't addressed why he is the 'best player ever', or even why he is the best player right now.
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JD hates to lose. Oov, Boxer, Stork, Fantasy, Calm, etc - all of them hate to lose. It's not a good reason by itself.
Flash has innovated with build orders and attack timings, but he's not alone in this respect.
The mnm that stream around the map in his TvZ are pretty damn scary though.
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I think a good management Zerg could tear Flash's style apart. The problem is that all the Zergs are aggressive or hyper-aggressive, and Flash's style is designed to beat just that.
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On March 27 2010 12:35 jalstar wrote:
I think Flash needs more titles before he's the "Best Ever". When Nada has 6 and iloveoov and Jaedong each have 5, Flash's 2 start to look puny.
Not that I think the best player ever is the one with the most titles, just that he should be close to the top of the list. Flash isn't, yet.
Is Flash more qualified to be the "Best Player Ever" than Nada or iloveoov? If you're looking at this as a point of objective skill then yes. Jaedong is a closer comparison, and only time will tell in that case. Nada and iloveoov were good in their time. So was the B17 Flying Fortress. That doesn't necessarily mean that the B17 was the best bomber plane ever, is isn't, but it was effective in its day. What I'm getting at is that skill progressively grows so titles are only a relative gauge of a players skill with respect to their times.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
You know, a few guys named Nada, Savior, and Oov would like to disagree.
No one fucking touched those guys in their primes. Each one of them has 4+ titles to boot. Come back when you've been touched by the legends of the past.
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mehhhh, JD and Flash needs a revenge match Bo10 to settle this : )
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On March 27 2010 12:49 Zona wrote:
JD hates to lose. Oov, Boxer, Stork, Fantasy, Calm, etc - all of them hate to lose. It's not a good reason by itself.
Flash has innovated with build orders and attack timings, but he's not alone in this respect.
The mnm that stream around the map in his TvZ are pretty damn scary though.
You forgot Midas. He definitely hates to lose.
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ughh... I see you put a lot of effort into your post... but I just have a hard time praising Flash because I dislike him.
Can't deny he's hella good though.
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i love flash and jaedong so much <3
the heart may or may not have been unnecessary...
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isn't this entire op equal to "i really like flash" and nothing more?
arguing for superlatives like the "best" bw player?
calling something the BEST implies that there is a comparison to be made. you wouldnt call tony's the "best" pizza in town unless there were other less tasty joints around, yes?
without this comparison you can only say that flash is amazing, genius, or some other such praise which may or not be qualified based on some criteria. so you can say something like "among terrans in the year 2010, flash had the best record and most amount of all kills." this might make him the "best" terran of the year if by "best" you mean
1. highest win ratio
2. most pl wins
3. placed highest among terrans is x starleagues
how do you name someone "the best" at something that is as dynamic as proSC?
flash can be shown as statistically "better" than Y player in X season or tournament. but then this is just a relative "betterness" since it requires comparision. now, remove the comparison and you have nothing to call flash "better" than. what happens when you compare kwanro and flash. based on certain qualifications you might say flash is better. same with fantasy and baxter?
now bisu? is flash better than bisu? well that begs the question: "what do we mean by better? better record in the last 10 games? more starleague appearances this season?, more PL wins? more AKs? maybe flash is better than bisu during z time period statistically. now what happens when you compare flash and leejaedong? even more murky right? so very quickly your value judgment regarding flash unravels to nothing more than emotive praise of someone you cheer for.
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I'm pretty sure your thread answered your own question :p
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I think if other people knew why he is the best, maybe he wouldn't be the best anymore o.O
I suspect it's something to do with practicing until his fingers bleed and then practicing... True story
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how can practicing make your fingers bleed?
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Ive never seen flash cry after a game apart from the osl finals, can you show me some games where hes cried after defeat?
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I bet I can replace 'Flash' with 'Bisu/Jaedong/Stork' and 'T' with 'P/Z' and still make this post make sense
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On March 27 2010 14:27 XIII wrote:
not with stork
What?
Of course it works with Stork.
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On March 27 2010 13:47 Newguy wrote:
how can practicing make your fingers bleed?
His practice keyboard shoots out pins when his apm drops below 800.
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Flash maxed out Terran. SC isnt balanced. Optimally, terran dominates. :D
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On March 27 2010 14:59 love1another wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 13:47 Newguy wrote:
how can practicing make your fingers bleed? His practice keyboard shoots out pins when his apm drops below 800.
His fingers did not bleed, it was his muscles/skin between his thumb and index finger on his left hand
Flash has a decent sized palm but his fingers are much shorter than the average person, and because of this he couldn't do A+9/0. During his start of 'new streak' he started stretching his muscles to be a more efficient player.
At the end of OSL finals there were photographs of his hand and how he had blisters all over the place because of excessive stretching
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United States4796 Posts
On March 27 2010 12:57 Roffles wrote:
You know, a few guys named Nada, Savior, and Oov would like to disagree.
No one fucking touched those guys in their primes. Each one of them has 4+ titles to boot. Come back when you've been touched by the legends of the past.
Agreed. Flash is a good player but the era of bonjwa or even "best player ever" is over.
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what makes this worse is that your handle is one letter off from a bonjwa (the greatest of them in my eyes) and you're reppin flash. Thats about as cool as me using the word reppin.
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The way I see it, Boxer was the brains and strategist, which he trained into Flash. The Sword.
IloveOov was the economist and macromanagement powerhouse, which he trained into Flash. The Shield.
Flash is the empty vessel filled with these 2 players. Without them he is nothing. Mechanics and Timings are useless without the aforementioned things. I don't know about his game sense, so I won't speak on that but that is another factor to being perfect.
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Osaka27148 Posts
Why Flash is the best player ever
Because you started watching progaming in 2009.
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On March 27 2010 15:51 Manifesto7 wrote:Because you started watching progaming in 2009.
win?
so much from before 09 that hes missed :/
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Baltimore, USA22253 Posts
On March 27 2010 15:51 Manifesto7 wrote:Because you started watching progaming in 2009.
<3
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Pfft,Boxer ftw. Without him sc programming in Korea would've sucked balls
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On March 27 2010 17:16 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 15:51 Manifesto7 wrote:Why Flash is the best player ever Because you started watching progaming in 2009. <3
After 30 replies, someone comes out with an elegant comeback. <3
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Flash is the best player at the moment, but he is still lacking titles. I still consider Jaedong better than Flash overall (in terms of consistency, title wins, etc).
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Nada is still the best player ever. 6 titles sup?
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On March 27 2010 18:15 lolaloc wrote:
Nada is still the best player ever. 6 titles sup?
nope, but because he has the fastest hands (350 - 400 APM, sup?)
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On March 27 2010 12:57 Roffles wrote:
You know, a few guys named Nada, Savior, and Oov would like to disagree.
No one fucking touched those guys in their primes. Each one of them has 4+ titles to boot. Come back when you've been touched by the legends of the past.
this.
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On March 27 2010 15:51 Manifesto7 wrote:Because you started watching progaming in 2009.
Mani I wish I knew you better because everytime you post it makes me happy <3.
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Flash deserves better than this...
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Baa?21242 Posts
On March 27 2010 18:42 Djin)ftw( wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 18:15 lolaloc wrote:
Nada is still the best player ever. 6 titles sup? nope, but because he has the fastest hands (350 - 400 APM, sup?)
July 800 apm, best player ever tbh.
by.hero average450-500, best player tbh.
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On March 27 2010 12:58 chongu wrote:
mehhhh, JD and Flash needs a revenge match Bo10 to settle this : )
how do you do a Bo10?
and I think we can close this already because of this...
On March 27 2010 15:51 Manifesto7 wrote:Because you started watching progaming in 2009.
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On March 27 2010 20:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 18:42 Djin)ftw( wrote:On March 27 2010 18:15 lolaloc wrote:
Nada is still the best player ever. 6 titles sup? nope, but because he has the fastest hands (350 - 400 APM, sup?) July 800 apm, best player ever tbh. by.hero average450-500, best player tbh.
There you have it. flash sucks
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I dislike comparing progamers too excessively to players who were dominant in different time periods. Iloveoov looks like trash compared to Flash's modern play but that does nothing to diminish the legend that is Choi Yun Sung.
In fact, I harbor an intense dislike for the term "best player ever", because it isn't relative to any time period. Go ahead and make the case that Flash was the best player from 200X-20XX. If we're going to talk about progamers, lets keep it respective to their time periods.
Flash may end his career as the fifth bonjwa but it must be absolutely kept in mind that he is playing in a totally different environment than sAviOr/NaDa/BoxeR/Iloveoov ever did.
People were saying the same thing about Iloveoov back in his day. People shouted "he must be cheating." "he must be hacking." "it's impossible to have an army that big."
this feeling, that invincible aura, it's anything but new.
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Perhaps, but I would say the amount BW players have left to improve is very little.
Also, what makes Flash look touchable? because his win rate isn't 90% yet lulz
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best player of today is obviously the best player ever since the game evolves constantly
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His lips are made of brain matter...More brain=greater SC skill
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I like your post and it makes sense, but most players have that fire. Losing is a really emotional thing because not only did you let yourself down, you let your team down. It's more difficult to deal with when others are relying on you and can share in your success as well as your failures.
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I haven't watched sc1 games in a while but I do remember one thing about him, his determination.. you can see it in his face.
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Every player has determination. You have to be crazy determined just to make it into the A team.
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United States33360 Posts
He definitely needs to win 2~3 more championships before we start talking about all time greats.
But if we're just saying pure skill at peak, he's probably the best progamer ever.
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On March 28 2010 12:38 Neak wrote:
I haven't watched sc1 games in a while but I do remember one thing about him, his determination.. you can see it in his face.
I didn't see that during the last MSL Finals though.
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Hey does anyone have that picture of Flash's face when he had that twitch or something. When his eyes r messed up.
Thats why he is the best. O.o
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Best player ever? I wouldn't say so. But I don't think anyone can doubt that Flash > Anybody at their peak if they played. If you take the best savior's ever been and put that guy against Flash, Savior's getting owned.
Dunno if it's been mentioned but check out the TLFE called 'On Waxen Wings.' http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113256
Its good. 
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Braavos36374 Posts
On March 29 2010 12:09 Bibbit wrote:Best player ever? I wouldn't say so. But I don't think anyone can doubt that Flash > Anybody at their peak if they played. If you take the best savior's ever been and put that guy against Flash, Savior's getting owned. Dunno if it's been mentioned but check out the TLFE called 'On Waxen Wings.' http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113256Its good.
plenty of people believe jd at his peak > flash at his peak
i mean, they played a series when arguably jaedong wasn't at his peak, and flash lost
even discounting game 4, jaedong was ahead 2-1 in games
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On March 27 2010 17:57 meegrean wrote:
Flash is the best player at the moment, but he is still lacking titles. I still consider Jaedong better than Flash overall (in terms of consistency, title wins, etc).
you sir, could have said 'titties' instead of titles and i would still agree with you.
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Flash isn't even the best player right now. The OP is especially ironic considering for a looong period Flash could reliably destroy second-rate progamers with unbelievable consistency but failed hard when it came to matches with other S-class progamers.
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On March 30 2010 21:19 FieryBalrog wrote:
Flash isn't even the best player right now. The OP is especially ironic considering for a looong period Flash could reliably destroy second-rate progamers with unbelievable consistency but failed hard when it came to matches with other S-class progamers.
Flash isn't the best player right now?
I'd realllllly like to see you make a case for that.
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There is even a map named (2) flash right now.
edit: and I'm not taking a side in argument as I=Toss player and unfortunately Toss only pawn like crazy in SCII so... bye!
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On March 27 2010 12:57 Roffles wrote:
You know, a few guys named Nada, Savior, and Oov would like to disagree.
No one fucking touched those guys in their primes. Each one of them has 4+ titles to boot. Come back when you've been touched by the legends of the past.
what? why does there need to be an elitist "i was there for the past" poster in every thread about modern players? do you even have something to say?
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On March 31 2010 10:45 BalloonFight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 12:57 Roffles wrote:
You know, a few guys named Nada, Savior, and Oov would like to disagree.
No one fucking touched those guys in their primes. Each one of them has 4+ titles to boot. Come back when you've been touched by the legends of the past. what? why does there need to be an elitist "i was there for the past" poster in every thread about modern players? do you even have something to say?
YEAH WELL when SC:BW came out I was in South Korea and I had the honor of watching a TvT on television where both players went mnm. The player with more medics won, lol. At the time I had no idea about SC but I thought it was a really cool scene so it's always stayed in my memory. Several years later I realized how roflstupid it was and how undeveloped the game was back then.
When it comes to Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork, I've always personally thought that Flash had the greatest raw potential and was the scariest player when playing at the top of his game. But that's just a personal feeling and opinion.
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On March 31 2010 10:45 BalloonFight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 12:57 Roffles wrote:
You know, a few guys named Nada, Savior, and Oov would like to disagree.
No one fucking touched those guys in their primes. Each one of them has 4+ titles to boot. Come back when you've been touched by the legends of the past. what? why does there need to be an elitist "i was there for the past" poster in every thread about modern players? do you even have something to say?
Yeah. No one touches Flash either.
Even when Oov was dominating, July could still beat him. When sAviOr was dominating, he still had a tough time against GoRush/Hwasin.
What Flash lacks in comparison to the other bonjwas is individual league success. His domination in terms of statistics surpasses that of even iloveoov, he revolutionized TvZ and TvP, he perfected TvT, the mechanics of NaDa, the macro of oov, the game sense of sAviOr.
It's the titles that separate him from bonjwas of the past.
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best has a different definition from most skilled.
without doubt, flash is the most skilled progamer since, but i would say the best would be nada, who had the longest reign
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Sure NaDa had the longest reign, but was he as dominant as Oov? Was he has important to e-sports as BoxeR or YellOw? Was he as innovative as nal_rA? Did he have sAviOr's sense?
There is no "best" progamer. There are favorites. There are player on top of their eras. There are players who excel above others in one aspect of the game. There are players who revolutionized a match-up or perhaps an entire race.
Arguing over who is "best" is pointless. Everyone has a different idea of what is more important. Some consider BoxeR the best because of what he contributed to the growth of E-Sports. Some consider NaDa the best because of his success. Some consider Oov the best because his crushing dominance and macro revolution. Some consider Flash the best because he takes everything that made the previous bonjwas the "best" of their time and consolidates it into one ultimate weapon, yet he lacks league success.
For every reason you might consider some gamer the "greatest", they lack a quality that causes another to consider another player the "greatest"
It's an argument that, frankly, should be put to rest.
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On March 28 2010 04:53 Hypnosis wrote:
His eyelids are made of brain matter...More brain=greater SC skill
I know rite...
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
On March 27 2010 15:51 Manifesto7 wrote:Because you started watching progaming in 2009.
win
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On March 31 2010 11:38 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 10:45 BalloonFight wrote:On March 27 2010 12:57 Roffles wrote:
You know, a few guys named Nada, Savior, and Oov would like to disagree.
No one fucking touched those guys in their primes. Each one of them has 4+ titles to boot. Come back when you've been touched by the legends of the past. what? why does there need to be an elitist "i was there for the past" poster in every thread about modern players? do you even have something to say? YEAH WELL when SC:BW came out I was in South Korea and I had the honor of watching a TvT on television where both players went mnm. The player with more medics won, lol. At the time I had no idea about SC but I thought it was a really cool scene so it's always stayed in my memory. Several years later I realized how roflstupid it was and how undeveloped the game was back then. When it comes to Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork, I've always personally thought that Flash had the greatest raw potential and was the scariest player when playing at the top of his game. But that's just a personal feeling and opinion.
i thought jaedong was until flash got in his crazy tvz streak then won osl.
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+ Show Spoiler +Well, while this thread is bumped, its worthy to note Flash broke his ELO AGAIN to 2435. Maybe its been a long time, but has ANYONE been this damn dominant before, at least in the pro league, for THIS long? He's just out of control.
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EPT
