Ok, we really really need to do something about the strategy forum. It used to be high quality discussion about very specific builds and problems encountered in very specific situations like "PVZ FE move out hightemplars getting sniped by muta group HELP". That's a legitimate strategy help thread.
These days with the large amount of newbie (NOT noob, please note) players, we're getting thread after thread where you(newbie) just got straight up outplayed in every aspect of the game, and come ask for help. AND THEN you have even more newbies (or noobs) come in and give absolutely terrible advice which is misleading and doesn't solve the core problem at all.
The CORE PROBLEM is that your apm is not up to the standard that you obviously aspire to play at. I suggest this training regime if you are serious about starcraft.
I'm a protoss player so zerg/terran players don't follow this literally since your builds/strats are a little different but you should be able to take something from here.
This is mostly for PvT which is just a straight up macro fest. If you are macroing well you shouldn't even need storm/reaver/arbiter/carriers and should be C- HotBid had a very good post somewhere basically saying what I'm going to say but I can't find it so I'm going to say what he did and add a little stuff.
You can play vs computers since you are just practicing.
PROBE PRODUCTION 1) Constant probe production. If you don't know when to stop building probes you are obviously not at that level yet. Put your nexi on 9 and 0. 9p0p should be instinct. Watch the replay again. Note down when your probe production starts to turn to shit. Play again and work on that.
2) Constant army production. GENERAL RULE 1 nex 2 gate 2 nex 5 gate 3 nex 9/10 gate This is assuming you have been building probes constantly and your minerals are nicely saturated. Also depends on how hard you want to tech but generally this is a good rule to follow. Anyways if you miss a macro cycle and have money left over it's better to have spent a little too much on gates than having money and not enough gates.
Keep making units. PvT early game dragoons only. Later on start getting zealots. Watch your rep. When are you not macroing? Why? Where you expanding? Getting attacked? Attacking? Now you know when to be aware of not macroing.
Put your gates on 5678 or something. At least two so you can 55 or 66 in the middle of a battle and as your zealots and dragoons die you instantly build units to not let your supply drop.
3) Pylons This goes hand in hand with macro but so many people still miss it. Keep an eye on your macro and add pylons when you need them. You should really never ever hear Aldaris whine about constructing additional pylons.
If you can do these three things your apm should be around 180/200 and you should find yourself smacking around D/D+ terrans like hotcakes.
4) Basic terran siege attacking Keep your army as close to his as possible. Every time he moves you should be picking at his army. Keep an obs near his tanks so when you hear him unsieging you 1a2a your goons in to pick off mines/vults maybe even stray tanks. This forces him to siege/unsiege and gives you more time to get 200/200.
When engaging full on, try to spread out your units into an arc so you take less damage from tanks. Send in zealots on MOVE command so they run to the tanks and drag mines with them. Send in dragoons on ATTACK command to cleanup. During the fight try to spread out your zealots so each tank has at least one zealot chewing it. Spread out dragoons as best you can to avoid taking maximum tank fire. MACRO!
Training multitasking There was this old thread on this but I can't find it. Play against a computer and send your probe out early. Attack the CC/nex/hat so all the workers follow you. Keep your worker alive and max out as fast as you can. This gets you used to switching screens back and forth and keeping your scout/army alive and moving when you need to.
Anyway this is all very basic stuff. I hope I've helped at least one person. And seriously there is a lot of poisonous bullshit in the strat forums lately I don't even know if people are trolling or just plain dumb. If you want to up your game the best way is to get your basic mechanics down first. 90% of the strat forum is basically newbies getting outmacroed.
Lol what are you talking about your supposed to stop making probes after like 12..
Always wait till you hear that protoss guy tell you that you require more pylons before building new ones, because then you will be wasting precious minerals.
And you always attack the Terran army straight up no matter what..
I'm D on iccup with a 36% win ratio, I know what I'm talking about.
On February 18 2010 19:17 Megalisk wrote: Lol what are you talking about your supposed to stop making probes after like 12..
Always wait till you hear that protoss guy tell you that you require more pylons before building new ones, because then you will be wasting precious minerals.
And you always attack the Terran army straight up no matter what..
I'm D on iccup with a 36% win ratio, I know what I'm talking about.
i never read strategy forum for this reason, sorry I couldn't post some advice tho but seriously ever since SC2 has been announced TL has gotten swarms of newbs that come here and don't read the 10 commandments, it's not just the strategy thread that has been shat on, but still in most ways since then TL has grown so much and has achieved alot, but at the same time the quality of posts has been slightly lowered, and the over generalizing in the strategy forum just makes my head hurt, and I don't think it can be changed, I'd say read it or don't =\
On February 18 2010 19:24 lokiM wrote: i never read strategy forum for this reason, sorry I couldn't post some advice tho but seriously ever since SC2 has been announced TL has gotten swarms of newbs that come here and don't read the 10 commandments, it's not just the strategy thread that has been shat on, but still in most ways since then TL has grown so much and has achieved alot, but at the same time the quality of posts has been slightly lowered, and the over generalizing in the strategy forum just makes my head hurt, and I don't think it can be changed, I'd say read it or don't =\
yes exactly. i havent read the strat forum for the longest time then I read it yesterday and holy crap what a load of bullshit i just raged.
On February 18 2010 19:24 lokiM wrote: i never read strategy forum for this reason, sorry I couldn't post some advice tho but seriously ever since SC2 has been announced TL has gotten swarms of newbs that come here and don't read the 10 commandments, it's not just the strategy thread that has been shat on, but still in most ways since then TL has grown so much and has achieved alot, but at the same time the quality of posts has been slightly lowered, and the over generalizing in the strategy forum just makes my head hurt, and I don't think it can be changed, I'd say read it or don't =\
yes exactly. i havent read the strat forum for the longest time then I read it yesterday and holy crap what a load of bullshit i just raged.
yea perhaps there's nothing that can be done...
Well the purge is coming soon, that will cover the entire site. As for fixing the strategy forum, you jut need stricter moderation, close all threads that don't follow the guide lines (a lot of threads don't, they just post two to three lines and a replay and think it's alright). Apparently you're not suppose to post when the OP is poorly written, but people still do.
The thing that gets me the most is when someone asks for help with zero effort put into the opening post, and when they get criticized for their play they get all defensive...
Sorry, but where are you getting these numbers from? Also, I find playing on single player with no computers better than playing with a computer because you don't have to modify your build order. And pretty much none of your advice is applicable to Z/T players. Each matchup has different priorities at low levels.
Sorry, but where are you getting these numbers from? Also, I find playing on single player with no computers better than playing with a computer because you don't have to modify your build order. And pretty much none of your advice is applicable to Z/T players. Each matchup has different priorities at low levels.
from personal experience
I'm a protoss player so zerg/terran players don't follow this literally since your builds/strats are a little different but you should be able to take something from here.
yeah.. i kinda stopped reading the strategy forums because of this. newbies making tons of new threads about what is essentially a basic problem with their macro.
On February 18 2010 19:24 lokiM wrote: i never read strategy forum for this reason, sorry I couldn't post some advice tho but seriously ever since SC2 has been announced TL has gotten swarms of newbs that come here and don't read the 10 commandments, it's not just the strategy thread that has been shat on, but still in most ways since then TL has grown so much and has achieved alot, but at the same time the quality of posts has been slightly lowered, and the over generalizing in the strategy forum just makes my head hurt, and I don't think it can be changed, I'd say read it or don't =\
yes exactly. i havent read the strat forum for the longest time then I read it yesterday and holy crap what a load of bullshit i just raged.
yea perhaps there's nothing that can be done...
Well the purge is coming soon, that will cover the entire site. As for fixing the strategy forum, you jut need stricter moderation, close all threads that don't follow the guide lines (a lot of threads don't, they just post two to three lines and a replay and think it's alright). Apparently you're not suppose to post when the OP is poorly written, but people still do.
The thing that gets me the most is when someone asks for help with zero effort put into the opening post, and when they get criticized for their play they get all defensive...
yea i really hope a purge is coming soon. the big problem is newbies giving each other bad advice and thinking it's good advice so they never get better. the guy clearly sucks *building his first gateway at 230minerals* then some other newb suggests going bulldog/reavers. like what the fuck?
Chill should start dishing out temp bans like free candy
I believe people get too hung up on playing out perfect build orders and strategies at D, while their mechanics are non existent, I know not everyone wants to be a macro robot and some creativity is always a good thing, but its worthless when you cant execute anything. You lose a game and wonder, why, was it because i didn't move this here, or attack here at this time, no, you lost because you have no macro and no micro at all, work on that, the rest will come later, like my sensei skyglow said when he was training me, just with proper macro you will be able to roll over most of the people at lower levels. So new players, don't pay too much attention to tiny details and strategies, just work on getting faster and playing clean, focus on making your base efficient and tight, focus on every macro round, and if you have apm left over try to micro as good as you can, force your self to physically play faster, you might be sloppy at the start but after a while you will see a difference.
Holyshit I should have posted my guide here fuuuuuuu. If anyone wants a little lol go to stratagy and look for a guide I wrote recently. It's titled "posting in strategy does not make you better."
you vould devide the strat forum into c- and upwards and then a strat forum for d+ players and downwards - but hey im just a newbie D player so no one gonna listen to me.
to those who didnt understand this: 2) Constant army production. GENERAL RULE 1 nex 2 gate 2 nex 5 gate 3 nex 9/10 gate
It means on 1 nexus you have the economy to constant unitproducing on 2 gates.
Actually you can produce on 3 gates but you wanna save/use money for expanding/teching.
On February 18 2010 20:34 meegrean wrote: yeah.. i kinda stopped reading the strategy forums because of this. newbies making tons of new threads about what is essentially a basic problem with their macro.
this covers like 80%+ of any problem I've ever seen there.
On February 18 2010 22:47 exeexe wrote: you vould devide the strat forum into c- and upwards and then a strat forum for d+ players and downwards - but hey im just a newbie D player so no one gonna listen to me.
and you're right, because that's a terrible idea and wouldn't make any sense to split things like that. It's like trying to ask for an excuse for poor quality threads. It's not like there's enough volume to justify something like that anyways
On February 18 2010 22:49 Divinek wrote: and you're right, because that's a terrible idea and wouldn't make any sense to split things like that. It's like trying to ask for an excuse for poor quality threads. It's not like there's enough volume to justify something like that anyways
Yes but then again, think about it. Then the players, who avoided the strat forum, can now return to the strat forum, by entering the high lvl strat forum.
So in my eyes its a solution for everyone, not only bad players.
On February 18 2010 19:09 pyrogenetix wrote: 2) Constant army production. GENERAL RULE 1 nex 2 gate 2 nex 5 gate 3 nex 9/10 gate This is assuming you have been building probes constantly and your minerals are nicely saturated. Also depends on how hard you want to tech but generally this is a good rule to follow. Anyways if you miss a macro cycle and have money left over it's better to have spent a little too much on gates than having money and not enough gates.
Well thats just wrong. One full saturated P base works with 4 gates while giving you money for expanding/tech. Same with a saturated main+natural, those can produce out of 8 gates. Your "general rule" applys only to pvt where you know the terran wont move out anyways so you focus on fast teching and expanding instead of getting units; for example the most popular style right now in pvz is getting at least 6 gateways before expanding to a third (assuming there isnt an inbase expansion like on medusa or andro).
On February 18 2010 19:09 pyrogenetix wrote: 2) Constant army production. GENERAL RULE 1 nex 2 gate 2 nex 5 gate 3 nex 9/10 gate This is assuming you have been building probes constantly and your minerals are nicely saturated. Also depends on how hard you want to tech but generally this is a good rule to follow. Anyways if you miss a macro cycle and have money left over it's better to have spent a little too much on gates than having money and not enough gates.
Well thats just wrong. One full saturated P base works with 4 gates while giving you money for expanding/tech. Same with a saturated main+natural, those can produce out of 8 gates. Your "general rule" applys only to pvt where you know the terran wont move out anyways so you focus on fast teching and expanding instead of getting units; for example the most popular style right now in pvz is getting at least 6 gateways before expanding to a third (assuming there isnt an inbase expansion like on medusa or andro).
duuuude shuut your fuckin ass. you are the poison that is fucking up the strat forum
well 1 saturated p main CAN support 4 gates and i guess you wuold be able to make units out of that for a while but then expanding and teching would be reaaaal slow lol. usually see 1base4gate in hunters team games.
and 8 gates also works if you like.. really haven't managed to expand and are looking to do a desperate last attack and hope you can hold back the terran for long enough.
he's right about the more popular pvz style now though, more gates and pushing out earlier + getting a later 3rd
It's weird that you complain about terrible advice in the strat forum and then proceed to dish out your own lol.
Honestly, I think that too many C level players get used to thinking they can just be faster and macro harder, because when they were losing at D rank they didn't think 'my strategies are retarded and need more thought' they thought 'my strategies are fine [when they're not], I just need to micro better, or macro better, or whatever." The thing is, once you get up to B or A, everyone knows how to macro/micro PLUS they have good strategy. So pure macro/micro players get demolished and keep trying to improve macro/micro because they think that's all there is to it. At some point you just have to pick up The Art of War and start realising you're basically the equivalent of a button mashing fighting game player. You dunno what you're doing, you just do it faster.
On February 19 2010 00:38 alffla wrote: well 1 saturated p main CAN support 4 gates and i guess you wuold be able to make units out of that for a while but then expanding and teching would be reaaaal slow lol. usually see 1base4gate in hunters team games.
and 8 gates also works if you like.. really haven't managed to expand and are looking to do a desperate last attack and hope you can hold back the terran for long enough.
he's right about the more popular pvz style now though, more gates and pushing out earlier + getting a later 3rd
You can generally have more gates if you cut probes/delay expansions/delay tech, and fewer if you're teching/expanding faster than normal or if your nexus came up abnormally fast (so your probe saturation is lower than normal for your nexus count). You can also run more gateways if you pump Zealot/Templar rather than dragoons. (Or if you've lost an army, so you don't need to build pylons.) That's all pretty obvious, though.
In PvT there's little inclination to max gateways on a small number of bases, because it's very unlikely you can overrun the Terran. 3-4 gateways on one base, or 6+ gateways on 2 bases, is much more attractive in PvP, as if you can mass a bigger army at his choke than he can, it's very difficult for him to win.
Sorry, but where are you getting these numbers from? Also, I find playing on single player with no computers better than playing with a computer because you don't have to modify your build order. And pretty much none of your advice is applicable to Z/T players. Each matchup has different priorities at low levels.
I'm a protoss player so zerg/terran players don't follow this literally since your builds/strats are a little different but you should be able to take something from here.
It's hard to believe that you are anywhere above a solid D rank if this is what you get from personal experience...
EPT
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