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Russian Federation410 Posts
There's a lot of talk going on about StarCraft II shaping up to be the killer of SC:BW, there are different sides to the issue, so let's go through:
1. Old timers and the effects of CS:Source and WarCraft III
A few years back when WarCraft III was undergoing the last days of closed beta there was exactly the same talk all around the scene, including, surprisingly Diablo II.
What really happened was that building on the hype of new WarCraft and a 'unique' mix of RPG/RTS genre the game attracted players from all over the Blizzard gaming camp. What followed was a stasis on StarCraft community lasting up to a year, until everybody realized, that WarCraft was deemed impossible to balance and not carrying the exciting hardcore gaming torch far enough, if at all.
What killed it for a lot of people is the inability to insert custom-created competitive maps into the official ladder, leading to a massive and surprising increase in production of of RPG-style maps.
To add to the barrel of black tar was the lack of connection between the official ladder and LAN-tournaments. As you may recall the first solid leader of War III Ladder (I can't remember his name, he was Undead) failed to qualify for first WCG featuring WarCraft III. The issue of being good on B.net but not capable of producing results on real tournaments was known to StarCraft players, and an expected revamp of old standards for WarCraft III didn't happen.
All of that with the resurgence of Korean StarCraft scene into the western world brought StarCraft back. Along with it and ever-increasing Internet bandwidth came the whole scene with VODs, KeSPA replacing KPGA and all the frosting you can see and taste here.
The CS:Source effect of course, putting the candy in a new wrapper, in this case - engine, didn't do much good in terms of evolution, but brought a lot of new players in while maintaining the integrity of the old community - a financial success, but not exactly a triumph of evolution.
2. The Great Expectations
So, what do we expect from StarCraft II? Well, exactly the same thing. Whether or not the game is good, whether or not it is a worthy successor to StarCraft or both SC and War3, it will mesmerize both for about a year.
If StarCraft II turns out to be decent-enough, the day of it's release will be SC:BW's time of death.
The surprising in a way decision of Blizzard to significantly revamp the game rather than follow a CS:S route, which a lot of SC players would've preferred, IMO was driven by simple maths of selling StarCraft to millions of new players, as the good old community is slowly dying out with participants simply aging and moving on, - in both Western world and Korea on a smaller scale.
Korean StarCraft scene is like to take a steady approach to transitioning, if StarCraft II matches their expectations, in a matter of 2+ years, creating a time bubble for every party involved to deal with legal aspects of IP, distribution, broadcasting, with leagues, teams and players following on already settled turf later on.
We're not likely to see a mass of StarCraft Progamers switch to SCII as they're bound by contracts to practice and represent their teams.
The only way to speed things up would be for the public to happen to prefer StarCraft II to the original and switch, leading to a ratings decrease for SC broadcasts and an overall drop in popularity, while certain old-schoolers like Boxer or YellOw still hanging out in StarCraft scene could be making a loud and clear re-comeback to the new game taking their audience with them.
3. The Uncertainty
I don't want to go deep into this, but there are certain shady spots around StarCraft II.
Main concern, of course would be the quality of the product and the direction Blizzard will be taking it. If 2nd a 3rd pieces of campaign turn out to be full blown expansions, that would mean the game will not be balanced until the money shower settles.
If they turn out to be a paid campaign module with, possibly, addition of certain B.net 2.0 features without affecting multiplayer experience - balancing will go on quicker.
Second concern is Korean scene and the question of Broadcasting rights and the IP-battle between Blizzard, KeSPA, which we haven't had an update on since GOM StarCraft died.
Then, of course, there are technical questions of internet broadcasting and the increasing bandwidth due to SC II having HD resolutions and all the rest of it from Internet to Television broadcasts. Plus the added possibility of Garena an WaaghTV streaming features, biting pretty hard in overall broadcasting if not making it obsolete, but that's to resolve later.
There's still the question of how a hardcore competitive game is to be met by people new to the franchise, people are used to CnC-style heavily campaign and casual oriented games, providing a never before seen depth to campaign featuring full-blown 2-hour CGI movies with popular actors and Hollywood writing. Of course there's a simple matter of attracting a brand new audience ideally in millions of players, - younger kids who grew up on casual that is "The Thing" nowadays.
That's just about it, see you on B.net 2.0 on the first day of beta, at least those with keys.
 
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Great post. A huge issue with possibly having proleagues on SC2 right from the start would be dealing with imbalance.
It's been mentionned many times that it took years to polish SC1. Imagine if SC1 proleagues today were to play with spawning pool only costing 150 minerals, or if storm could still one shot tanks and lurkers.
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You didn't mention Super Smash Bros Melee and Super Smash Bros Brawl
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When WC3 was released. SC:BW did drop somewhat. I know all my SC friends at the time, and many others around the world, all started playing WC3 but just before the release of the Froze Throne we realized how shitty the game actually was. Which was a year after release or so.
If SC2 can't prove to be a man enough game in one year. People will go back to SC:BW. I don't see SC:BW dying either. Go tell Jaedong: "Hey guess what? You're out of a job." That ain't happenin.
I would love to see both sports grow but in reality it will stay strong in Korea while it loses some fire elsewhere. After a year, it will either re-kindle due to SC2 being shit or it will wither out completely if SC2 can carry on the competitive fire.
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Russian Federation410 Posts
On February 11 2010 18:59 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
When WC3 was released. SC:BW did drop somewhat. I know all my SC friends at the time, and many others around the world, all started playing WC3 but just before the release of the Froze Throne we realized how shitty the game actually was. Which was a year after release or so.
That's exactly what happened to me as well, chickened out days before TFT release, but i played beta and knew what to expect.
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On February 11 2010 18:35 Zoler wrote:
You didn't mention Super Smash Bros Melee and Super Smash Bros Brawl
This. SSBM is dying the worst death a competitive video game can die, it had reached an incredible metagame when brawl burst forth from its stomach, leaving it lying in a pool of its own blood and entrails. Meanwhile brawl is feeble and weak, clinging on to e-sport life like a sick parasite, while memories of the once-brilliant SSBM fade with every last ragged breath it takes.
i might have exaggerated a little
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On February 11 2010 19:11 Seraphz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 18:35 Zoler wrote:
You didn't mention Super Smash Bros Melee and Super Smash Bros Brawl This. SSBM is dying the worst death a competitive video game can die, it had reached an incredible metagame when brawl burst forth from its stomach, leaving it lying in a pool of its own blood and entrails. Meanwhile brawl is feeble and weak, clinging on to e-sport life like a sick parasite, while memories of the once-brilliant SSBM fade with every last ragged breath it takes. i might have exaggerated a little
hahahah gold post .lool
i hope bw never dies T_T
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I predict the same thing that happened to smash melee and brawl will happen to bw and sc2. First a good 95% will jump over to sc2, then they will slowly trickle back to bw, then eventually bw will be big again as people will realize it's a far superior game, leaving only a small community for sc2.
edit:
On February 11 2010 19:11 Seraphz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 18:35 Zoler wrote:
You didn't mention Super Smash Bros Melee and Super Smash Bros Brawl This. SSBM is dying the worst death a competitive video game can die, it had reached an incredible metagame when brawl burst forth from its stomach, leaving it lying in a pool of its own blood and entrails. Meanwhile brawl is feeble and weak, clinging on to e-sport life like a sick parasite, while memories of the once-brilliant SSBM fade with every last ragged breath it takes. i might have exaggerated a little
what the hell are you talking about, the melee scene is still huge and is actually growing because brawl players are coming to melee. Go watch genesis finals or some matches of pound 4 to see.
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I don't see SC2 being better than BW.
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I don't see why everyone has such huge expectations on sc2. Guess what, sc and sc2 as competitive esports have about as much to do with each other as sc and wc3. The only real difference is that SC2 plays out in a starcraft setting and has the same lore etc, but beyond single player it's just another modern RTS which has turned out to be a pretty shitty genre imo.
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On February 11 2010 19:11 Seraphz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 18:35 Zoler wrote:
You didn't mention Super Smash Bros Melee and Super Smash Bros Brawl This. SSBM is dying the worst death a competitive video game can die, it had reached an incredible metagame when brawl burst forth from its stomach, leaving it lying in a pool of its own blood and entrails. Meanwhile brawl is feeble and weak, clinging on to e-sport life like a sick parasite, while memories of the once-brilliant SSBM fade with every last ragged breath it takes. i might have exaggerated a little
just a bit, considering how solid of a tournament Pound 4 was
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i think sc2 has the potential to be better than bw. sc 2 has two more expansions to really polish up the balance. have some faith ppl
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On February 11 2010 19:09 Go0g3n wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 18:59 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
When WC3 was released. SC:BW did drop somewhat. I know all my SC friends at the time, and many others around the world, all started playing WC3 but just before the release of the Froze Throne we realized how shitty the game actually was. Which was a year after release or so.
That's exactly what happened to me as well, chickened out days before TFT release, but i played beta and knew what to expect.
My experience was similar as well. My friends and I all fully expected WC3 to completely supplant SC the same way SC had supplanted WC2. We even stuck through the first few months of TFT, hoping it would be like when BW had changed SC. After that we gave up on WC3 and ended up back on BW.
I'm really excited to play SC2 and see how it evolves, especially with two expansions coming. I don't expect it to be a better game that BW right out of the box, but I have some hope that it will be someday. And if SC2 never surpasses BW it will be interesting to see why not.
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Calgary26003 Posts
I feel like posts like these are vacuuming all the fun out of everything. Good lord. How about we just play the game and let it be and see what happens instead of trying to artificially save BW or to inject esports into SC2?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2010 20:38 resonance wrote:
I predict the same thing that happened to smash melee and brawl will happen to bw and sc2. First a good 95% will jump over to sc2, then they will slowly trickle back to bw, then eventually bw will be big again as people will realize it's a far superior game, leaving only a small community for sc2.
And you can make an assertion as strong as this without having played the final form of Starcraft 2?
On February 12 2010 02:13 Chill wrote:
I feel like posts like these are vacuuming all the fun out of everything. Good lord. How about we just play the game and let it be and see what happens instead of trying to artificially save BW or to inject esports into SC2?
This.
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Russian Federation410 Posts
^^ Why would you think that? It's a simple review of the current situation and different expectations, won't give or take anything from the actual game experience. However, it will be interesting to see which ideas turn out viable.
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On February 11 2010 18:35 Zoler wrote:
You didn't mention Super Smash Bros Melee and Super Smash Bros Brawl At least Blizzard appears interested in making the game competitive. Brawl was just another casual Wii cop-out.
Tripping? Good Lord T.T
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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 11 2010 22:00 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Guys, I seriously doubt that this will be a CS:source scenario. Rather than people flocking back to SC:BW after one year, I see a SCII port of the original.
Same game with far better graphics. The tools are there to make it happen, so why not? The new editor is suppose to be almost limitless or something.
I am one person who likes to stick with the old and the familiar, but its just too damn ugly.
because even if you try to copy it, the mechanics of how everything works will never be the exact same.
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Since this is a similar topic, I am going to post what I posted in another thread:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2010 03:14 Tom Phoenix wrote:
To be honest, I dislike the whole "death" analogy. To me, StarCraft II is merely a new phase in StarCraft progaming and not the death of one scene and the start of another. Afterall, it`s preety much a given that a lot of the people involved with the BW scene are going to be involved with SC2 as well.
Anyway, a lot of the responses in this thread remind me of Lovecraft`s quote: "The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown." A lot of us have become greatly accustomed to Brood War and have gotten used to it`s various units, strategies and quirks. And quite a few have become so used to it that they perceive anything new that could potentially replace it with great reservation, if not outright hostility. In many ways, it is a natural and expected response.
However, while fear of the unknown can be a useful talent toi have, it also tends to make us blind to new opportunities for growth. And as much as we hate to admit it, StarCraft is in desperate need for new opportunities. This is particularly evident in Korea, the mecca of StarCraft. Even there where it is strongest, StarCraft is no longer what it used to be. StarCraft no longer dominates PC Bangs, viewership has dropped considerably and there are less people attending events (even when old legends are playing). Controversies revolving KeSPA have only made this situation worse. Overall, the scene is in need of revitalisation.
The only way to do that is for the StarCraft phenomenon to become international. However, Brood War cannot do this, since it has very much a niché appeal outside of Korea, even after the renaissance it has experienced due to SC2`s announcement. The fact that the game has been mostly mapped out, as Artosis put it, does not help either. Yes, there is still some innovation....but that innovation has become increasingly more subtle and rare and that cannot sustain a casual viewership that allowed the Brood War scene to run at it`s former pace. That is why StarCraft II represents a new opportunity...not only for former and existing StarCraft fans, but also for a brand new generation as well.
Overall, StarCraft II can very much be described as a newborn offspring. When a person comes into this world, we cannot know for certain what kind of life they will lead. They could end up being your average person for the rest of their days, they could reach great heights and make their mark in the annals of history or they can end up being a lot worse then ourselves and fail to utilise their talents. We just do not know. All we can do is nourish them, teach them, support them and hope that, once they are standing on their own two feet, they can utilise their potential to the fullest. So just like a parent`s greatest happiness is to see his offspring successfully walk in the great big world on their own, so it would be Brood War`s crowning achievement if StarCraft II managed to supercede it.
People in this thread like to use the word "death". But the truth is, Brood War will never truly die. Through great actions, men have been able to shed their mortal bodies and reach immortality by affecting us long after their demise. In much the same fashion, Brood War will forever exist in gaming history and, more importantly, in our hearts and minds. But everything must come to an end eventually....even Brood War. But when that day comes, I think all StarCraft fans (even those that are so reluctant at this point in time) would be at a much greater peace of mind if they knew that it had a successor , worthy of it`s name, carrying it`s spirit and continuing it`s legacy. Will that be StarCraft II? Noone can say for certain at this point. What we can do, however, is to help it, support it and hope for the best.
Anyway, I do not think any of the above mentioned scenarios (WC3, CS:S and SSBB) really apply to StarCraft 2. WC3 was intentionally created with a different approach to RTS gaming in mind (greater emphasis on micro) in order to differentiate it from other Blizzard games, something that some people were bound to dislike. As for CS:S and SSBB, I do not think the respective game developers ever actually put into consideration the concerns of the competitive community. Neither developer tried to compensate in any way for the elements they placed in the games that ended up diminishing the competitive aspects of their respective games.
Blizzard, on the other hand, has shown to be aware of the concerns of the competitive community. While it is uncertain at this time whether Blizzard will actually be able to solve those problems, the fact that they are actually working to solve them makes it much more unlikely that SC2 will go down the same path as CSS and SSBB.
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SC2 - The Rebirth of SC:BW. SC2 is like a baby born with four arms. People freak out at first since it's not like the parent but eventually accept that it is the way of the future.
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On February 12 2010 07:32 Mada_Jiang wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 03:40 Chill wrote:On February 11 2010 22:00 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Guys, I seriously doubt that this will be a CS:source scenario. Rather than people flocking back to SC:BW after one year, I see a SCII port of the original.
Same game with far better graphics. The tools are there to make it happen, so why not? The new editor is suppose to be almost limitless or something.
I am one person who likes to stick with the old and the familiar, but its just too damn ugly. because even if you try to copy it, the mechanics of how everything works will never be the exact same. Isn't that only because of unit pathing? Apart from that all the other elements like unit stats, mineral distence etc, I am sure can be tweeked to the exactly values of the original (if given enough time). What other elements are there that can't be changed? I would have thought that better unit pathing would be a good thing wouldn't it? I am so sick of dumb units walking around a choke like headless chooks, and goons glitching up.
Well, there are things like hold-lurker, glitching units and observer/turret bugs. Stuff like that might be hard to replicate in the SC2 editor.
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EPT
