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So recently, I got to C- (3775), then the following weekend, I lost like a billion games, almost one after another. TT
Also, all my allies mysteriously died. -_-
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=24357
TZ:TZ
One of the few games where battles for map control actually happened. I was fighting off 4fact with 3fact while trying to expand, but I ended up expoing at roughly the same time,and not even with enough SCV's. In the beggining, I notice that most Terrans have waaaay higher population than me (for some reason, I stop SCV's at 22, even though I can easily keep SCV production up while having enough to afford depots/vults/gols). Aside from my lower population early game, it seemed like my control was fine, but I probably made some stupidass decision someplace. I watched the rep a few times, and I'm not sure if it's a specific mistake or a bunch of accumulated ones. Of course, letting the enemy T send an army up my ramp before I could get tanks was the game-deciding one, but were there any before that?
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=24358
Another TZ:TZ
It's a mirror matchup, so I assume scouting is slightly more important than in a non-mirror? You can't just exploit racial advantages to win battles, so you need to exploit tactical/strategical advantages. It seems like when I play with GuSi, we are failing to do any real scouting after the first few minutes of the game, so we don't know if we're dealing with 3 fact or 4 fact, what's the T's expo timing, etc.
This game was embarrassingly bad.
My gol's weren't spread out to protect SCV's properly (I kept dragging around control groups instead of using hold pos, then just controlling the gols near the mutas.)
Then the enemy Terran went 8 fact and nukes. ~_~
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=24359
TZ: PZ
This guy seemed to have the right idea. (The enemy P.) Even though he 12 12 gated (wtf is that supposed to work) and I had a decent sized army, as soon as I got down my ramp, I couldn't quite control properly, and was pushed back for a few seconds, long enough for lings to back him up. I wanted my Z's lings to get to me, so I could try to get out without losing my main force.
I think the game just went downhill after the first battle. Was this an error due to control? Decisionmaking? I'm under the impression that at that point in time, the two decisions available were
1) Attack
2) Turtle
If my Z ally 12pools to muta? Do I turtle?
More generally, I think learning some kind of drop plays would help. (Notice that I never use any.) I really just don't know how to exploit them in any vs ZX MU, which happen to be the MU's that actually matter.
What do you think?
Pix:
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I'll watch your replays (max 2v2 rank of C, one or two wins away from C+ with a decent win%)
Game 1 TZ vs TZ: your gas was a little bit late, probably not critical but the other T's gas was 60% done when yours started and that gave him a faster factory. you pulled a lot of SCVs to repair your wall and left 2 of them there for a while, you probably could have gone without this especially since your ally's lings were out by then. the other t delayed his armory for a long time and made more SCV/vulture than you did, and because he had a wall/your ally had a stupid spire placement he was able to defend your counter decently AND punish your ally with a pretty good attack which killed the spire. a big reason why you lost was probably because the enemy zerg went lings, his ally vults/SCV and they neutralized your tech advantage by killing the spire, also because t has more SCV's than you his macro will explode off of 4 factories and overrun your 3 factory pump. (the early unit advantage also lead to map control and then an earlier expansion than you). okay i'm at the part where you let the T up your ramp, this attack on z that left you out of position is really unnecessary, because you have muta/ling/goliath vs ling/goliath/ 1 tank and could beat their army straight up in the middle of the map, and run zerg over afterward.
Game 2 TZ vs TZ: this game your opening is better but you have only 1 SCV mining gas for a long while and it throws off your min:gas ratio for the whole game. your ally makes the same mistake of teching aggressively and then getting behind from attacks he should easily be able to defend by that point in the game. around 8 minutes in a rather stupid mistake by you where you know terran has gone drop and zerg is straight mutas but you send most of your goliaths to your ramp anyway and the zerg snipes a bunch of SCV, where you could have just played defensively and slaughtered his mutas giving your ally a big army advantage. there's another thing that happened in both TZ vs TZ games: you dont start making tanks even after you have more than enough goliaths to fend off the enemy zerg's mutas, and the other terran punishes you guys by having tanks out much earlier. the last quarter of this game is basically the other terran just expanding and macroing with his huge SCV advantage while you try to play catch-up unsuccessfully off of 2 bases.
Game 3 TZ vs PZ: this game is a little bit less clear what went wrong, but: the enemy zerg went 12 hatch 11 pool vs your ally's 12 pool 12 hatch which was advantageous to the other team. also because of your ally's defensive play the other team was able to tech faster than they normally would, which lead to a pretty sizable goon army for protoss by the time you pushed out. also you need to get your academy a lot earlier, when you pushed out you had stim but no range, which made a giant difference vs that many ranged goons. (your marine range doesn't finish until 8:30 into the game T_T) i'm not sure if i agree with this 3 rax into expo build order, as a PZ team it's much scarier to face a TZ team that techs up to vessels (with EMP) quickly, a no-shield no-energy goon/templar army just melts against stimmed marines. if you ARE going to do that mineral-heavy build instead of teching, i'd recommend taking 1-2 SCV's off of gas, right now you have 1500 gas but it's only being spent on the occasional medic (+1/stim/range are all finished now), you also take your natural gas when the starport is JUST starting and you already have 1700 gas in the bank. the rest of the game is the P on 3 bases, his ally on 2, and your team each with just your main bases getting pummeled.
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For the record, I read this almost as soon as you posted it, but was in class, so I was trying to focus on the material at hand.
Also, for the record, I just lost another bunch of games due to some similar reasons. vs PZ, my range timing is always at 8 minutes, so I get raped by mass goons, and my allies lings are just not in place. Should I just go straight for range after stim, cutting any units if necessary?
I really don't actually understand the gameflow of TZvsPZ as well as the easier MU's, like TZvsPP (yea, I know, this isn't much of an MU for the PP team.)
If one player plays defensive on TZ team, should the other as well? I'm assuming that since that team will have like half the units, both players should just defend. Should I be able to move out alone at the timings I do if I had range, or should I wait for my ally to SOMEHOW get a bunch of lings near my choke? (And hope for a flank/get lings in front of rines and go.)
How should I be playing in response to P going 2gate-->templar archives? what about 3gate? Do I still tech vs 3gate, or mass off more rax?
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Wow i love this post, will follow it especially if the 2v2 players leave their comments on it.
Currently i'm playing at D level as the T in a TZ team =p hope to learn much from this =p
you might wanna try vults with mines after 2 rax if theres a P on the other side as his obs might be nonexistent and the mines help with map control and killing goons/temps that like to wander around
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I'm thinking the problem with that is that adding vults would weaken an mnm build (they don't synergize with mnm the way tanks do), and if they notice vults, they will probably disarm mines with zeals.
And vs PZ team, Z should be sending 2nd/3rd ov to his ally, so it won't do much. =\
Any other thoughts on this? o_o
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8 minute range is super slow as hell, should be like 7 minutes tops. Stim should start at 4:30 at the latest. I uninstalled SC so I can't look at your replays but when you are playing defense TZ vs PZ you as T are not necessarily defending. Yes you sit in your base but you're just waiting for your ally's mutas, then you can go put some pressure on them and prevent their expos. They'll either have to defend mutas or they'll try to all-in your ally, because they won't have anything that wins vs MM when your MM are in a defensive position.
Stop them from expoing, usually have your ally expand before you TZ vs PZ with mutas first and then go ahead and bunker the P (this is the easy solution). The easiest way to play defensive TZ is to just have the Z be the big one and have the T concentrate all his money on stopping them from expanding while the Z gets a huge muta advantage.
Vults is for non-bunkering builds generally, so you can contain the P long enough to kill the Z. Usually mines is when the P has their nat already and you can't bunker them. Otherwise tanks are better at your bunkers to stop reavers, and to help you get up the Zerg's ramp.
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lol at the epic 2v2 record. xD
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2009 20:44 Ganfei wrote:
8 minute range is super slow as hell, should be like 7 minutes tops. Stim should start at 4:30 at the latest. I uninstalled SC so I can't look at your replays but when you are playing defense TZ vs PZ you as T are not necessarily defending. Yes you sit in your base but you're just waiting for your ally's mutas, then you can go put some pressure on them and prevent their expos. They'll either have to defend mutas or they'll try to all-in your ally, because they won't have anything that wins vs MM when your MM are in a defensive position.
Stop them from expoing, usually have your ally expand before you TZ vs PZ with mutas first and then go ahead and bunker the P (this is the easy solution). The easiest way to play defensive TZ is to just have the Z be the big one and have the T concentrate all his money on stopping them from expanding while the Z gets a huge muta advantage.
Vults is for non-bunkering builds generally, so you can contain the P long enough to kill the Z. Usually mines is when the P has their nat already and you can't bunker them. Otherwise tanks are better at your bunkers to stop reavers, and to help you get up the Zerg's ramp.
Thanks, this timing information helps.
And the records.... after sir.deiv banned unk, he started handing out olympic ranks like candy. I saw 1-2 guys got that, then when I got back from my first game, almost 10 people had olympic ranks. ~_~
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