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Erm, America is flooded with guns now. I think you're missing the point, even if guns were made harder to get now, they already exist in such sparce variety that the problem is not going away any time soon. Countries with stricter gun-control are countries that have had those laws for a long fucking time.
Look at the size of America, it shares a border with a much more crime-heavy country (mexico) sorry, but the facts are there to support that. America also has quite extensive gang-culture and lots of gun shops. People own multiple guns. You think passing a law now is going to change that at all? Drugs are illegal, people still get every kind of drug under the sun. If people want something, they will get it.
If some one has the menality that they want a gun to go and shoot a bunch of people. Then they will go and do that. The reason it doesn't happen more often isn't because that people can't get hold of a gun. It's that most people are not fucking assholes.
Back to the real topic, I hate topics like this. They leave a harrowing feeling in me. Nothing scares me more than people with this sort of unreasonable violent mentality. My heart goes out to all the people who lost a family member. RIP.
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On November 08 2009 14:41 Dr.Lettuce wrote:
Erm, America is flooded with guns now. I think you're missing the point, even if guns were made harder to get now, they already exist in such sparce variety that the problem is not going away any time soon. Countries with stricter gun-control are countries that have had those laws for a long fucking time.
Look at the size of America, it shares a border with a much more crime-heavy country (mexico) sorry, but the facts are there to support that. America also has quite extensive gang-culture and lots of gun shops. People own multiple guns. You think passing a law now is going to change that at all? Drugs are illegal, people still get every kind of drug under the sun. If people want something, they will get it.
If some one has the menality that they want a gun to go and shoot a bunch of people. Then they will go and do that. The reason it doesn't happen more often isn't because that people can't get hold of a gun. It's that most people are not fucking assholes.
Back to the real topic, I hate topics like this. They leave a harrowing feeling in me. Nothing scares me more than people with this sort of unreasonable violent mentality. My heart goes out to all the people who lost a family member. RIP.
So you think because its already an extensive problem they should NOT take measures to try and fix it?
Now most of these people who do these kind of massacres are regular working people who just snap, not hardcore gangsters from the ghetto who already owns 3 uzis. While everyone CAN get a hold of a gun, what do you think is the easiest way.
A: Already having one because your country lets everyone and their grandmother have guns (and not just shotguns and hunting weapons, but semi autos with 15-20 rounds before they have to reload) or once you snap go to some local gun shop and pass whatever background check they take on you and getting a gun within a couple of weeks, and in general continue your happy suburban life without any hassles beside having to drop by the gunstore.
Or
B: Not being able to just go an purchase a gun in the store or just borrow your neighbors, but first have find out WHERE you can go to buy an illegal firearm from criminals and from WHO and then proceed to go to some ghetto to get a hold of it without getting robbed or swindled or even get a working gun. Not to mention if you for some reason are stopped by the cops having an illegal firearm your ass gets thrown in jail.
Everyone in their right mind can see that option B is gonna help prevent these kinds of things from happening, sure some people are insane and will get it done anyway, but this WILL stop some of those with bad intentions or the very least stop a lot of "in the heat of the moment" killings by people who already owns a weapon that would have cooled off if they could not get a hold of a firearm easily.
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On November 09 2009 01:12 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2009 14:41 Dr.Lettuce wrote:
Erm, America is flooded with guns now. I think you're missing the point, even if guns were made harder to get now, they already exist in such sparce variety that the problem is not going away any time soon. Countries with stricter gun-control are countries that have had those laws for a long fucking time.
Look at the size of America, it shares a border with a much more crime-heavy country (mexico) sorry, but the facts are there to support that. America also has quite extensive gang-culture and lots of gun shops. People own multiple guns. You think passing a law now is going to change that at all? Drugs are illegal, people still get every kind of drug under the sun. If people want something, they will get it.
If some one has the menality that they want a gun to go and shoot a bunch of people. Then they will go and do that. The reason it doesn't happen more often isn't because that people can't get hold of a gun. It's that most people are not fucking assholes.
Back to the real topic, I hate topics like this. They leave a harrowing feeling in me. Nothing scares me more than people with this sort of unreasonable violent mentality. My heart goes out to all the people who lost a family member. RIP. So you think because its already an extensive problem they should NOT take measures to try and fix it? Now most of these people who do these kind of massacres are regular working people who just snap, not hardcore gangsters from the ghetto who already owns 3 uzis. While everyone CAN get a hold of a gun, what do you think is the easiest way. A: Already having one because your country lets everyone and their grandmother have guns (and not just shotguns and hunting weapons, but semi autos with 15-20 rounds before they have to reload) or once you snap go to some local gun shop and pass whatever background check they take on you and getting a gun within a couple of weeks, and in general continue your happy suburban life without any hassles beside having to drop by the gunstore. Or B: Not being able to just go an purchase a gun in the store or just borrow your neighbors, but first have find out WHERE you can go to buy an illegal firearm from criminals and from WHO and then proceed to go to some ghetto to get a hold of it without getting robbed or swindled or even get a working gun. Not to mention if you for some reason are stopped by the cops having an illegal firearm your ass gets thrown in jail. Everyone in their right mind can see that option B is gonna help prevent these kinds of things from happening, sure some people are insane and will get it done anyway, but this WILL stop some of those with bad intentions or the very least stop a lot of "in the heat of the moment" killings by people who already owns a weapon that would have cooled off if they could not get a hold of a firearm easily.
Well said. Unfortunately, America is full of voters who don't have a strong grasp on logic and/or are illiterate.
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On November 09 2009 01:12 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2009 14:41 Dr.Lettuce wrote:
Erm, America is flooded with guns now. I think you're missing the point, even if guns were made harder to get now, they already exist in such sparce variety that the problem is not going away any time soon. Countries with stricter gun-control are countries that have had those laws for a long fucking time.
Look at the size of America, it shares a border with a much more crime-heavy country (mexico) sorry, but the facts are there to support that. America also has quite extensive gang-culture and lots of gun shops. People own multiple guns. You think passing a law now is going to change that at all? Drugs are illegal, people still get every kind of drug under the sun. If people want something, they will get it.
If some one has the menality that they want a gun to go and shoot a bunch of people. Then they will go and do that. The reason it doesn't happen more often isn't because that people can't get hold of a gun. It's that most people are not fucking assholes.
Back to the real topic, I hate topics like this. They leave a harrowing feeling in me. Nothing scares me more than people with this sort of unreasonable violent mentality. My heart goes out to all the people who lost a family member. RIP. So you think because its already an extensive problem they should NOT take measures to try and fix it? Now most of these people who do these kind of massacres are regular working people who just snap, not hardcore gangsters from the ghetto who already owns 3 uzis. While everyone CAN get a hold of a gun, what do you think is the easiest way. A: Already having one because your country lets everyone and their grandmother have guns (and not just shotguns and hunting weapons, but semi autos with 15-20 rounds before they have to reload) or once you snap go to some local gun shop and pass whatever background check they take on you and getting a gun within a couple of weeks, and in general continue your happy suburban life without any hassles beside having to drop by the gunstore. Or B: Not being able to just go an purchase a gun in the store or just borrow your neighbors, but first have find out WHERE you can go to buy an illegal firearm from criminals and from WHO and then proceed to go to some ghetto to get a hold of it without getting robbed or swindled or even get a working gun. Not to mention if you for some reason are stopped by the cops having an illegal firearm your ass gets thrown in jail. Everyone in their right mind can see that option B is gonna help prevent these kinds of things from happening, sure some people are insane and will get it done anyway, but this WILL stop some of those with bad intentions or the very least stop a lot of "in the heat of the moment" killings by people who already owns a weapon that would have cooled off if they could not get a hold of a firearm easily.
So what, if most people who go and and commit these crimes are not gangsters. That in no way would stop them from possessing a firearm, I'm sure there are intelligent rational people who do own a firearm. It's the mentality of the person and the easy availability to which they have access to the weapons. And if they couldn't get a gun, they'd get a knife or create a bomb. If some one really is sick enough in the head or angry enough to commit murder against innocent people, then they will do it.
When on earth did I ever say anything that would lead you to believe I think any problem out of control should be left alone.
I think you also COMPLETELY misunderstood me. I'd be all for much stricter gun laws, but you missed the point of my post. Even if these gun laws are passed, I guarantee you random high school shootings and small scale massacres will still occur.
Why would you have to go in to some extreme ghetto to get a gun, and even so, some people will do exactly that. I live in the UK, I know for a fact I could get a gun if I really wanted to, and our country has no firearms except for hunters/farmers/soldiers. We have a much stricter regime than America.
Where there is money to be made, there will be a supplier illegal or legal. I sure as hell don't go to the "ghetto" to get my drugs, and I guarantee you that individuals or even gangs would see the potential money and would start selling guns.
Anyway I digress, the point is America is already flooded with guns, a little gun control now is so minor and insignificant. It's not even a baby step, a real huge project probably with some sort of community effort would need to be taken. If you really implemented gun control laws now, how the fuck do you plan on firstly withdrawing all the current legal firearms, what about people who claim they have lost/sold/broken a gun. Then on top of that you have gangs and people with unlicensed illegal undocumented guns. Then further on top of that, people will continue to ship guns in to the country that you will have no idea about. I think you severely over-estimate the strength of the law with this current topic/situation.
I am in no way saying I would not like to see America take a step towards some form of gun control, but I'm also not naive enough to think it would make much difference.
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On November 09 2009 05:12 Dr.Lettuce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 01:12 Oystein wrote:On November 08 2009 14:41 Dr.Lettuce wrote:
Erm, America is flooded with guns now. I think you're missing the point, even if guns were made harder to get now, they already exist in such sparce variety that the problem is not going away any time soon. Countries with stricter gun-control are countries that have had those laws for a long fucking time.
Look at the size of America, it shares a border with a much more crime-heavy country (mexico) sorry, but the facts are there to support that. America also has quite extensive gang-culture and lots of gun shops. People own multiple guns. You think passing a law now is going to change that at all? Drugs are illegal, people still get every kind of drug under the sun. If people want something, they will get it.
If some one has the menality that they want a gun to go and shoot a bunch of people. Then they will go and do that. The reason it doesn't happen more often isn't because that people can't get hold of a gun. It's that most people are not fucking assholes.
Back to the real topic, I hate topics like this. They leave a harrowing feeling in me. Nothing scares me more than people with this sort of unreasonable violent mentality. My heart goes out to all the people who lost a family member. RIP. So you think because its already an extensive problem they should NOT take measures to try and fix it? Now most of these people who do these kind of massacres are regular working people who just snap, not hardcore gangsters from the ghetto who already owns 3 uzis. While everyone CAN get a hold of a gun, what do you think is the easiest way. A: Already having one because your country lets everyone and their grandmother have guns (and not just shotguns and hunting weapons, but semi autos with 15-20 rounds before they have to reload) or once you snap go to some local gun shop and pass whatever background check they take on you and getting a gun within a couple of weeks, and in general continue your happy suburban life without any hassles beside having to drop by the gunstore. Or B: Not being able to just go an purchase a gun in the store or just borrow your neighbors, but first have find out WHERE you can go to buy an illegal firearm from criminals and from WHO and then proceed to go to some ghetto to get a hold of it without getting robbed or swindled or even get a working gun. Not to mention if you for some reason are stopped by the cops having an illegal firearm your ass gets thrown in jail. Everyone in their right mind can see that option B is gonna help prevent these kinds of things from happening, sure some people are insane and will get it done anyway, but this WILL stop some of those with bad intentions or the very least stop a lot of "in the heat of the moment" killings by people who already owns a weapon that would have cooled off if they could not get a hold of a firearm easily. So what, if most people who go and and commit these crimes are not gangsters. That in no way would stop them from possessing a firearm, I'm sure there are intelligent rational people who do own a firearm. It's the mentality of the person and the easy availability to which they have access to the weapons. And if they couldn't get a gun, they'd get a knife or create a bomb. If some one really is sick enough in the head or angry enough to commit murder against innocent people, then they will do it. When on earth did I ever say anything that would lead you to believe I think any problem out of control should be left alone. I think you also COMPLETELY misunderstood me. I'd be all for much stricter gun laws, but you missed the point of my post. Even if these gun laws are passed, I guarantee you random high school shootings and small scale massacres will still occur. Why would you have to go in to some extreme ghetto to get a gun, and even so, some people will do exactly that. I live in the UK, I know for a fact I could get a gun if I really wanted to, and our country has no firearms except for hunters/farmers/soldiers. We have a much stricter regime than America. Where there is money to be made, there will be a supplier illegal or legal. I sure as hell don't go to the "ghetto" to get my drugs, and I guarantee you that individuals or even gangs would see the potential money and would start selling guns. Anyway I digress, the point is America is already flooded with guns, a little gun control now is so minor and insignificant. It's not even a baby step, a real huge project probably with some sort of community effort would need to be taken. If you really implemented gun control laws now, how the fuck do you plan on firstly withdrawing all the current legal firearms, what about people who claim they have lost/sold/broken a gun. Then on top of that you have gangs and people with unlicensed illegal undocumented guns. Then further on top of that, people will continue to ship guns in to the country that you will have no idea about. I think you severely over-estimate the strength of the law with this current topic/situation. I am in no way saying I would not like to see America take a step towards some form of gun control, but I'm also not naive enough to think it would make much difference.
Sorry if I made it sound like you said it should be left alone, I phrased it as a question if you really do think that or at least that was my intention.
If someone could not get a firearm and instead decides to go mad with a knife, I would consider that about a million times better than having someone go berserk with a firearm that have the potential to kill A LOT of people in a short amount of time unlike a knife. There is also the chance that someone would just flat out knock the madman out if he tries to stab someone, that`s not gonna happen with a gun. Someone making a bomb you can`t really defend yourself from anyway since they can be made from normal legal things.
I can`t believe you compare getting drugs to getting weapons, like I have said if you REALLY want to you can get a hold of a gun, but you make it sound like there is a weapons dealer in every neighborhood like there is a drug dealer. How many people do you believe actually goes around buying weapons?!? Do you have a lot of friends who owns a weapon? I don`t know anyone, but I know tons of people who do drugs, its not comparable at all. People want drugs, the average Joe however do NOT however have a need to own an illegal firearm. (If it happens to be so in your place then look away from this) Tho probably some people I know would have owned a gun if was legal here. Point is you have to get in touch with some sort of criminal element to get a hold of a gun, and without me knowing I will go out on a limb and guess its gonna be a lot harder to find a weapons dealer than a drug dealer. Point is you say that school shootings etc will still keep happening, and while they probably will, its foolish to think that some of them would not be avoided with stricter laws. Even if you lowered the rate by 1 murder a Year I would call that a huge success and something that should be desired.
Now I do agree that trying to implement some sort of laws will be like trying to fix the leaks in the Iraqi navy, but its a step in the right direction and at least avoiding any NEW legal firearms to be sold would without doubt lower the amounts of weapons in the US compared to what it will be if nothing happens. Making things illegal IS an effective way to stop a lot of people from doing it, if Heroin was legal don`t you think there would be a lot more addicts than it is now? The thing is hiding behind that it already is such a big problem and hard to fix is just an easy cop out from the problems.
My point is, as long as you do nothing to try to prevent people from getting guns, you can`t be surprised that shootings happens. Clinching onto some old outdated law from when you could have a fucking Indian scalp you or having the English invade will make it more commonly for these type of things to happen, its a reason pretty much every other western country have strict gun laws and very low firearm murder rates to boot. Seriously, what reasons do civilians have to own a 9mm?
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EPT
