On January 11 2011 12:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am saying it is not as related as you guys were pretending earlier. On top of that the reason listed for it being closed was because Destiny sucks and no one has ever heard of him. Yes its a FORM of promotion but it wouldn't necessarily lead to a huge spike in viewers, maybe a small increase, unlike featuring which could easily double someones viewer count. I don't see how a fan thread is a privilege for Destiny which you are trying to imply. If it was something he really cared about then he would of made the thread. You closed something belonging to the community because of an issue with him. Fanclub and featuring are not anywhere near as related as you are trying to implicate.
Look, that's just not true. You can keep repeating it, but just like featuring, it has a dual purpose of being for the fans/viewers and being for the person.
Yes but you have a say directly in who gets featured, not the fans apparently; whereas the fans decide if they want a fanclub page for the streamer. Putting someone on the front page user streams is far different than someone seeking out a potential fanclub page on the forums.
On January 11 2011 08:06 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote: The problem is that some of you guys (see: zatic) are a little bit full of shit. If you don't want to have a fan thread because I encouraged members to all post "LESS QQ MORE IMPROVE" in someone's comment thread, then that's fine.
Stop posting BS yourself. I closed the thread because I had never heard of you, that's all there is to it. And I wasn't the only one on staff who hasn't.
Only when this discussion here started after that I read about the past drama. Needless to say that didn't exactly swing my opinion in your favor.
Zatic, how often do you watch streams? I mean if you aren't familiar with popular streamers then why are you moderating the fanclub threads since you are admitting you aren't aware of which players are noteworthy. I mean I didn't see you close that SiNs thread even though that guy is unknown and seemingly unaccomplished. Its reasonable for Destiny to assume that since you guys don't generally like him that you would close the thread on that reasoning which is fine since it is your site, but it would be preferable if you didn't pretend not to know him. That is why is he wrote that. I mean I if you aren't paying attention to the stream section to know who is good then its reasonable to assume you closed his fanclub page because you didn't like him or what he did, not because he was unknown.
Anyway, I don't think you guys are going to change your mind on this and all the arguments have been made. Reread it and maybe you will change your mind. I seriously think you are overestimating the benefits of a Destiny fanclub on his viewership but its fine. If you guys watch his play like Jibba said he would you will see the quality and in time you can look past his previous indiscretions and allow a fanclub for him, or maybe even feature him.
On January 11 2011 13:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Zatic, how often do you watch streams? I mean if you aren't familiar with popular streamers then why are you moderating the fanclub threads since you are admitting you aren't aware of which players are noteworthy. I mean I didn't see you close that SiNs thread even though that guy is unknown and seemingly unaccomplished.
This.
I'm not trying to tote my own horn or anything, but I stream pretty much every night of the week and can easily get 1k + viewers, I don't see how you could have never heard of me if you know anything about the SC2 streams here. I can understand if you don't like me, or don't like some of the things I've done, but it just sounded like you were trying to be an asshole when you closed the thread and said "Who?".
Regardless, whether or not I have a fan thread, or whether or not one's even allowed for me, really isn't the issue. Just don't start listing a bunch of clearly BS reasons why you won't allow one. =/
Sums it up for me and really the whole reason I spent time and energy on making those threads and posting here.
And if zatic hasnt heard of the stream or the streamer, he needs to take a break from whatever the fuck he does this whole time here on TL and expand the non-featured link to look around. Its right here zatic, on the right.
Regardless, whether or not I have a fan thread, or whether or not one's even allowed for me, really isn't the issue. Just don't start listing a bunch of clearly BS reasons why you won't allow one. =/
Sums it up for me and really the whole reason I spent time and energy on making those threads and posting here.
And if zatic hasnt heard of the stream or the streamer, he needs to take a break from whatever the fuck he does this whole time here on TL and expand the non-featured link to look around. Its right here zatic, on the right.
I'm all for calling someone out if they're wrong.....
But you don't need to sound like such a douche at the same time.
im not saying steven should be featured or have a fan club or anything. after all it hasnt been very long since he was unbanned and telling your viewers to spam the forums is definitely a legitimate reason to not be featured lol. i just dont think the whole "not good enough/not well known enough" thing is an valid excuse. if hes not being featured and isnt being allowed to have a fanclub because of his past actions thats fine, but i think it would have been a lot better if that had just been said straight up instead of the "who is destiny" thing. just my 2 cents
also i hope sin gets to keep his club, he seems like a nice guy and id hate my using him as an example to cause it to be closed
thanks for discussing this jibba and chill, if you think this gets to be too much please just tell us and im sure we'll all drop it(that means you stream trolls viewers...)
Well....considering that TL is a community, diversity and difference of opinion should come to be expected. When some people want to show appreciation for a streamer that has provided countless hours of entertainment to many viewers by creating a fan page, his thread gets closed. Just because you have a different opinion it doesn´t mean that others have to have the same taste or opinion as you. At this point many people are starting to question TL mods judgement and have feelings of resentment towards them At this point you guys have stated how you feel and your reasons. I personally disagree and feel as though community participation is limited and Mods are dictating too much of what we are suppose to like or how we are suppose to think. I don´t want to be force fed shit. I think some people in this community are just looking for a little more respect and maybe showing us some appreciation considering that about 1k people are on TL.net enjoy watching Steven Bonnell II. Why can´t we get what we ask for is it so unreasonable, scary concept, does it conflict with your idea of fun?
I used to watch other streams but they are not as fun sure some may have some highlevel play, play on a top team, won such and such touney etc etc doesn´t mean that this is what we should come to expect. Just because Justin Beiber makes a lot of money, is on the cover of every magazine, has a #1 hit it´s doesn´t mean I have to like his shitty gay ass music. Personally I demand more interms of entertainment....it´s like having sex with a condom then having sex without one on............it´s just not the same, no other stream has made it even close to the level of entertainment steven provides on a daily basis and there are about 1k people that will agree with me and probably couple mods that are going to disagree.
I´ll still be watching Steven Bonnell II in the unfeatured section till you guys decide to share him with others and please a great number of the COMMUNITY members. Everyone in this community deserves to be respected.
As chill said, we can argue without being assholes to each other. Honestly, it really doesn't matter. Destiny has one of the most entertaining streams on teamliquid. Featured or unfeatured, fan page or no fan page.
On January 11 2011 08:06 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote: Regardless, whether or not I have a fan thread, or whether or not one's even allowed for me, really isn't the issue. Just don't start listing a bunch of clearly BS reasons why you won't allow one. =/
Sums it up for me and really the whole reason I spent time and energy on making those threads and posting here.
And if zatic hasnt heard of the stream or the streamer, he needs to take a break from whatever the fuck he does this whole time here on TL and expand the non-featured link to look around. Its right here zatic, on the right.
You are completely out of line. Both of you actually.
You and Steven can decide I closed that thread because I hate him for whatever reason if you want to. Simple fact is I had no idea who he is, and I am tired of repeating that. For the record I was about to post his fanclub can be reopened but wanted other staff's input first. That was when I learned about the drama and him being banned just two weeks ago.
zatic: You've compelled me to finally register to comment on this.
Quite frankly, you're seeing a lot of pushback from the community, and you should seriously consider what that means. You're conflating moderation with editing. Many communities have failed due to a confusion between the two. Currently, the leading moderators/curators on websites are throwing around this link as an explanation of their own success. The reason it's being featured on a lot of topline blogs is because it distills an essential fact, that moderators are more curators of communities than authors of content. This distinction is an important one to make, as they act on behalf of their community.
Fundamentally, when the community has a large consensus and the moderators decide to disagree, it destroys community goodwill, which has substantial impact on the viability the community in the future. (SEE: digg or the whole Xeni/Violet Blue boingboing controversy)
Here's what I would do instead: 1. Let him have his fanpage. Saying that you were "about to post his fanclub can be reopened", but have changed your mind because someone compaliend and justified their rationale (no matter how vulgar) makes you the juvenile one. Having a fanpage doesn't impact teamliquid at all. 2. Give clear reasons of why Steven shouldn't be featured. If anyone currently featured doesn't meet the aformentioned criteria, they should be removed or their inclusion justified. Teamliquid aren't required to do this, as it's their own website and they can do as they please, but they ARE socially obligated to do so. 3. Solving this is really easy. Contact Steve and take this crap offline. Work something out and tell everyone what has been reached by consensus. Stroke Steve's ego and tell him to email you direct if he has anything else come up, it doesn't hurt you in the least and eliminates any future powder kegs.
I definitely wouldn't be posting in here with passive aggressive statements about how I changed my mind. If I owned an equity stake in teamliquid, i would be seriously concerned, as this may create a serious wedge in the community and destroy enough goodwill where a substantial portion of the community has an antagonistic stance with the moderation and owners.
The thing is, I don't see how you can be a moderator of the streams and not notice this kid getting a consistent <500 viewers everytime he's online. Yeah Steven may be a complete troll for 80% of the time he's on his stream, but I don't see how you can ignore the fact that he has probably one of the larger viewer bases for not being a featured stream. I mean c'mon, as a moderator how do you not notice that and then shut down the thread with "Who?". I think it was more uncalled for that there was no indication of investigating as to closing the thread on impulse.
On January 11 2011 18:02 haileris wrote: zatic: You've compelled me to finally register to comment on this.
Quite frankly, you're seeing a lot of pushback from the community, and you should seriously consider what that means. You're conflating moderation with editing. Many communities have failed due to a confusion between the two.
Welcome to TL!
TL's exceptional success has always been due to the conflation of moderation and editing. I don't know how long you have been following TL but that should have become transparent rather quickly. It's what makes this place unique and what it is appreciated for (and of course hated for as well, but you can't have one without the other).
To your other point: I asked for, appreciated, and valued the input of other staff members. How this is "juvenile" is beyond me.
And I posted that "passive aggressive" statement because for some reason people still seem to believe I hate Steven and closed his thread because of that.
On January 11 2011 18:09 Dave[9] wrote: The thing is, I don't see how you can be a moderator of the streams and not notice this kid getting a consistent <500 viewers everytime he's online.
There seems to be a misunderstanding: I am not a moderator of the streams. I have had no influence on his stream being featured or not.
Zatic, I am sorry but are you purposely not realizing what they are referring to? Dave[9] is talking about you stream moderating and not realizing who destiny is which led to you closing the fanclub thread with the unnecessary "Who?" comment. Which begs the question of why you are moderating stream related things (fanclubs) if you do not know anything about the streams/streamers?
TL's exceptional success has always been due to the conflation of moderation and editing[...]It's what makes this place unique and what it is appreciated for (and of course hated for as well, but you can't have one without the other).
Without getting too ivory tower-ish, let's just agree to disagree. I do see your perspective, however, I do still think you're confusing the two. Personally favoring certain perspectives/ideas/etc over another is editing, and I don't think that's beneficial towards any online community. Having a unique voice and perspective on your own content is one thing, but lacking impartiality and taking down community functions when the community largely disagrees has a substantial history of being an all-around bad idea. It's not a controversial thing to say that unpopular censorship is not the role of the moderator.
You're being juvenile because you're creating the impression that you're trying to win the discussion rather than to calm everyone down as a moderator. Nothing is cleared up in your followup responses and you're being openly hostile. You're getting a lot of open attacks towards your character because you're not operating in good faith and attacks are the most obvious way the community can express disagreement when a moderator doesn't act in good faith even after people in the community provide relevant points of view.
Do I like Steven? Not really, I think he's a homophobic ass (although he has an incredibly compelling voice and is enjoyable to watch), and he's probably too caustic to be featured or have a fanpage without a warning on the page. However, if his personality was the reason why he isn't supported by the moderators (which I suspect is the case), then it needs to be clear that is the reason, with an understanding that he may become a valued member of the community if he tones it down. Instead, we see unreasonable justifications that apparently do not apply to the other featured streams and fanpages.
On January 11 2011 19:14 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Zatic, I am sorry but are you purposely not realizing what they are referring to? Dave[9] is talking about you stream moderating and not realizing who destiny is which led to you closing the fanclub thread with the unnecessary "Who?" comment. Which begs the question of why you are moderating stream related things (fanclubs) if you do not know anything about the streams/streamers?
Because as I said earlier, the entire fan club thing is in flux to begin with. It started as something just for GSL players (and baller) and now it's grown into something for every type of marginal person. It's not as if it's some planned or established community system. And to be fair, even with Destiny doing well in a couple of UGs, he's still been in very few competitions.
haileris, I've brought up demeanor and Destiny's raging several times now. It's just like Debo. Also, I think you're missing the scope of what's going on.
On January 11 2011 19:49 haileris wrote: You're being juvenile because you're creating the impression that you're trying to win the discussion rather than to calm everyone down as a moderator. Nothing is cleared up in your followup responses and you're being openly hostile. You're getting a lot of open attacks towards your character because you're not operating in good faith and attacks are the most obvious way the community can express disagreement when a moderator doesn't act in good faith even after people in the community provide relevant points of view.
Well since beyond the initial question, which I answered, the "discussion" is people attacking me personally I don't see what I can do to clear up anything. I have stated over and over again why I closed his thread. Why his stream is not featured has been said already too.
Instead of accepting what I said about the matter he and his fans started speculating about other motives I and other staff members are supposed to have, going as far as to suspect a regular campaign against him.
While I am happy to reply to any questions I am getting tired of repeating myself. Let me say this regarding fanclubs: We have been discussing what to do with fanclubs in general for weeks now. I'd prefer to postpone this discussion until there is a decision how fanclubs on TL will work in the future.
EPT
