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MH17 Thread - Page 5

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KadaverBB
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany25658 Posts
July 20 2014 18:40 GMT
#81
On July 21 2014 03:10 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2014 02:56 xM(Z wrote:
there are like a myriad of lil' fuckers reporting posts. those should be banned first; policing the interwebs with their infected logic and moral standards, buying a + to gain more weight or credibility feeling oh so high and mighty when pushing the report button.

there's no way a mod reads all 50+ pages of crap. they looked through reports, maybe read some complains then boom, hit them with the hammer!.


Actually, I've read something like 90+% of the thread.


Yup^^
AdministratorLaws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 20 2014 19:39 GMT
#82
Here's a puzzle for you guys. On recent pages, 52 to 54, there has been discussion about a fake report about a Spanish air traffic controller reporting several fighter jets behind the Malaysian plane. The discussion (re-)started with this post. The original can be found here. This quotation of the original demonstrates that a tweet was attached to it.

We know this is of Russian origin because Russian propaganda channels report it. Examples: Itar-Tass, RT, Voice of Russia, etc.

There are some articles that debunk such fabrications such as the best one on Stopfake.org.

As I suspected, and a mod confirmed, Stopfake.org is not allowed in the thread. Yet, it has the best (only truly thorough) article regarding the Spanish air traffic controller fake. Here's the article I had in mind.

Now, the problem is that apparently discussion of the Russian fabrication is allowed, but the debunking of it is not. Please advise how to proceed.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
July 20 2014 19:52 GMT
#83
Quit trying to debunk a dead horse?
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 20 2014 19:58 GMT
#84
On July 21 2014 04:52 Jormundr wrote:
Quit trying to debunk a dead horse?


If only it were dead... Yet, it keeps being discussed.- which tends to happen in a situation with scarce information.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
July 20 2014 20:33 GMT
#85
On July 21 2014 04:58 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2014 04:52 Jormundr wrote:
Quit trying to debunk a dead horse?


If only it were dead... Yet, it keeps being discussed.- which tends to happen in a situation with scarce information.

Yall revived zeo's dead horse so you could beat it again and now you're complaining that you need bigger sticks to beat it with?
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-21 07:37:50
July 21 2014 01:23 GMT
#86
Feels like undermoderation to me. I'd have issued several warnings at least to keep people in line.

also, I feel zeo should be removed from the thread, as a major source of problems.
It's really annoying when he posts stuff like asking for higher quality reporting, then proceeds to use his usual dump of trashy reporting with provably false stuff.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
July 21 2014 06:05 GMT
#87
On July 21 2014 01:30 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2014 00:43 zeo wrote:
On July 20 2014 22:59 Evilmystic wrote:
On July 20 2014 22:09 Crushinator wrote:
Just ignore zeo, there is no point in arguing with him. I don't know why he is even still around, but it would be best not to engage him untill he inevitably goes.


He's here because Russian government employs a lot of people to support its propaganda narrative in the Internet.
Russian speaking sites are full of pro-government comments made by fake accounts and bots for a few years now, there are a lot of people writing pro-government "analytical" posts in their blogs that are in complete agreement with official propaganda regardless of how far from real factual evidence it is.
In last few months this cancer has spread to international communities too. On popular news sites every article that somehow relates to Russian interests receives a lot of similar pro-russian comments.

Can someone please explain to me how this post is in any way acceptable? I thought it was a bannable offense to call someone a shill, no? Guess the double-standards bandwagon rolls on. Please personally insult anyone whose opinion about an event doesn't match yours.

Asking for sources = the devil. Unbelievable. And what the fuck has this post got to do with anything the thread is about?


Patience, grasshopper.

I would just like to know patience for what? Obviously mods have seen the post, mods have banned other users since. What is taking so long? Maybe a mod can pm me if they can't talk about it here?

Meanwhile the thread is still being shitted up with opinion pieces.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 21 2014 07:11 GMT
#88
Another issue is that there are other news sources paid for by the Kremlin besides RT. Here's a useful list of people in service of the Kremlin: link Note that this includes the Ron Paul institute for peace and prosperity quoted in the thread. You'll note it's just a blog but it's well distributed among knowledgeable circles.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
July 21 2014 08:53 GMT
#89
Well it looks like my theory of too many loopholes in the guidelines set for the thread came true. Everyone here knows if I had posted a Russian journalist who works for RT 'but also worked for the BBC for 10 years' and his claims on how the Ukr. government shot down the plane I would be banned. That is to say even if I link his writing from some random magazine in the US.

If you cannot refrain from bias please do not kid yourselves that you are in any way unbiased, it is very clear that there is only one side to the story on this website. Admit that you cannot in any way refrain yourselves from taking sides and allowing manipulation of dialog so that it suites some members of the moderation team and I will never post in any thread to do with the situation in Ukraine again.

I will not take part in any discussion in which shit-tier propaganda is allowed, where I am consistently attacked by immature brats that cannot handle other people's opinions, all the while given pats on the back by moderation staff who refuse to even warn users that resort to pathetic accusations of actually being paid to post. Not to mention the appalling amounts of back-seat moderating.

Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15366 Posts
July 21 2014 08:57 GMT
#90
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote:
Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.

Thanks a lot, this will make it really easier for everyone involved. Cheers.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-21 08:59:55
July 21 2014 08:59 GMT
#91
pesky ninjas
zeo- People like you are the reason gen discussion had issues; as you degrade the quality of truth-finding with a great deal of nonsense; and cry circle-jerk when people call you on it.
Don't complain about the quality of posts when you're one of the main sources of shit-posts in those threads.

You do have some legitimate points, but you bring up too many bad ones which makes people ignore you: a la the boy who cried wolf.

Do not kid yourself, you are hugely biased, and not interested in the truth.


seconding zatic as well.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-21 09:14:49
July 21 2014 09:04 GMT
#92
On July 21 2014 17:57 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote:
Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.

Thanks a lot, this will make it really easier for everyone involved. Cheers.

Do I get a forum star because I helped?

@zlefin
People will see whatever they want to see. Anyway, whatever, I'm done. At least I can say I tried to balance an unbalanceable discussion on this forum. If hearing one side of the story and a complete blanket ban on the other side is your thing... well then you have come to the right place.

I truly believe some mods did the best they could. At least until it all went to shit with this thread.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11607 Posts
July 21 2014 15:58 GMT
#93
Nope. You would not commit to the logical conclusion of your doubts over the veracity of the story from the DailyBeast article. If you had, it would have placed your analysis in Grade-A 9/11 Truther and Moon Landing hoax territory. I will not miss conspiracy level source criticism in that thread.

Not to mention the appalling amounts of back-seat moderating.

That would be your last post in the thread, I believe.
Moderator5000 of our finest Taliban warriors have been released! Rise up my brothers. Mashalla! al-Donald ibn-Frederick al-Masih allows it.
5unrise
Profile Joined May 2009
New Zealand646 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-23 01:15:47
July 23 2014 01:13 GMT
#94
I think the moderation rule regarding a "neutral" media source is itself biased and ridiculous. It also represents a self-centered view of the world in believing that the Western view must be necessarily right (not that I'm saying it is wrong in this case).

This puts me off from contributing in this thread, and I suspect others may have done the same. I am no more inclined to post anything as I would on a Russian extremist nationalist website, for example.

This moderation rule and the moderators are responsible for hindering the quality of discussion on this website, and discussion is what ultimately keeps a forum alive. Moderators, please consider that before your own personal bias gets in the way of reason.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 23 2014 01:50 GMT
#95
On July 20 2014 21:04 zeo wrote:
So let me get this straight... Legallord was banned for personal theories... and yet there are countless opinion pieces posted on every page (including using blogs as sources). So its alright to link to clearly biased opinion pieces who state fog as fact yet giving your own opinion gets you banned?

I completely agree with this, and the only reason I didn't dispute the ban was because I wanted to leave the thread alone for good. It seems that the moderation is more concerned with making sure information comes from a western media outlet than that it has any form of substance.

There was one offhand comment I wanted to respond to, but other than that I am done with this topic. If a constant stream of speculative Twitter posts and sensational media is easier to moderate than opposing opinions, then so be it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-23 02:32:57
July 23 2014 02:28 GMT
#96
Well to be honest, as long as "corpses on the plane at takeoff" and bullshit like that are part of the opposing opinions, i'm good with that.

Spoonfed stupidity doesn't enhance the quality of that thread, which even though only neutral media is allowed, is still quite high. Not much gets disregarded pointlessly, just look at how long the ominous SU-25 was discussed. If you remember, that was a claim made by the "opposition", russia.

So far nothing is missed in the thread except bullshit like the corpsestory etc - so i don't really see the problem.

edit: not to mention, stuff from russian sources still gets posted after it got reposted by neutral medias. So at worst, you're losing a day before you can discuss something.

While i agree that the way the thread is moderated might not be the best way, it's far better than the clusterfuck the ukraine-thread became after russian trolls and tinfoilhat-theories derailed over and over.

I think the moderation rule regarding a "neutral" media source is itself biased and ridiculous. It also represents a self-centered view of the world in believing that the Western view must be necessarily right (not that I'm saying it is wrong in this case).


If you're not saying the western view is wrong in this case, than i don't understand why you're here arguing. This rule applies to no other thread afaik, so in this case the rule makes for a better discussion.
On track to MA1950A.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
July 27 2014 17:42 GMT
#97
MH17 thread has worked pretty well so far. Have you considered reopening the Ukrainian crisis thread (or having a fresh start) under the similar regulations?
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
July 27 2014 17:43 GMT
#98
On July 28 2014 02:42 Cheerio wrote:
MH17 thread has worked pretty well so far. Have you considered reopening the Ukrainian crisis thread (or having a fresh start) under the similar regulations?


No
AdministratorBreak the chains
2primenumbers
Profile Blog Joined February 2014
United States144 Posts
July 28 2014 16:36 GMT
#99
IT is absurd that you believe that any news source is neutral and have pushed a large part of the discussion underground with this policy.

Best Regards,
RG
o face
5unrise
Profile Joined May 2009
New Zealand646 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-29 09:11:12
July 29 2014 01:04 GMT
#100
On July 23 2014 11:28 m4ini wrote:

Show nested quote +
I think the moderation rule regarding a "neutral" media source is itself biased and ridiculous. It also represents a self-centered view of the world in believing that the Western view must be necessarily right (not that I'm saying it is wrong in this case).


If you're not saying the western view is wrong in this case, than i don't understand why you're here arguing. This rule applies to no other thread afaik, so in this case the rule makes for a better discussion.


You miss the point of having a debate. I don't know for sure if the Western view is right or wrong, nor do I know if the Russian view is right or wrong. I intend to use the evidence and analysis in this discussion to form an educated conclusion. To do that, I must be presented with evidence from both sides, and the ridiculous rule prevents this from happening.

I have no idea why you believe the rule makes for a better discussion. For people with no preconceived self-centered opinion on this issue, unlike yourself, this rule is garbage.
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