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Another weekend of bans in a tournament LR thread and some discussion in the ABL thread has got me thinking, why do we still call TL's tournament topics Live Report threads? Besides the OPs made by awesome individuals like Seeker, there's nothing about them that conforms to the idea of a live report.
Allow me to elaborate; in my opinion, a live report thread should be just that. Reports about what is going on in the tournament and the games so individuals not watching can follow the action and keep up to date. Live reports are things like the following:- "idrA opens 15 hatch, Polt opening two rax"
- "HuK scouts Ret's hidden expansion!"
- "Kawaii Rice beats Sheth, Polt versus Stephano streaming next"
These posts inform you on what's going on in the tournament, and allow people stuck at work or in class to follow the action; at least to some level. While there are posts like these in the current LR threads, one has to dig through pages and pages of posts discussing the casters, how hot Anna is, how much they hate/love the matchup being played, and a number of generally useless posts for each legitimate live report post.
Don't get me wrong, I love the general discussion. When I'm watching tournaments I often times feel the need to express my love for HuK or my supreme dissapointment that idrA has let us down again. But mixing this general discussion with live reporting pretty much entirely defeats the point of live reporting. I can't follow the action when half the posts are off topic and entirely unrelated and the thread is moving at 5 pages a minute. What we are left with is general discussion mixed with an OP that is essentially duplicating what Liquipedia already does. So I'm asking myself, why does it have to be this way?
My suggestion: separate Live Reporting from general tournament discussion into two distinct threads. I know, two threads for every tournament sounds cumberson but I'm sure there could be an effective way to do this; perhaps by putting LR threads in a subforum or using a specific tag in the thread title. I don't know that it really matters, but I think it's safe to say that an effective means of doing this could be easily found.
I'm just thinking about how totally awesome it would be if I could follow the action of EU tournies while a work. Anyone sitting in class could get accurate quality responses about what's going on. And if one wants to express their supreme disappointment when idrA predictably loses to a Korean again, one can hop over to the tournament discussion thread and do so. Both functions have their place, but merged together we get the worst of both worlds.
In the current combined format, LR OPs just end up racing with LP guys to see who can update faster. That's dumb, LR threads could be used so much more effectively. The OPs could link to specific points in the thread where certain matches occur, such as a link to the start of Stephano Polt, for anyone following the thread. Entire match summaries could be copied directly into the LR OPs. There would be permanent records of game descriptions that anyone could go back to at any time. Doesn't that sound awesome?
Now I know TL has a hardcore group of LRs that will inevitable object to this idea. But I think if one is actually live reporting a thread, they should be in favor of this idea; given that any effort put towards live reporting a tournament right now is pretty much lost. In the current form it's essentially impossible to follow a LR thread and get any use out of it.
I'm sure the staff are thinking about the extra moderation effort that this would require, keeping an eye on both threads. But I think once the precident is established that an LR thread is just for live reporting and all other discussion goes in a discussion thread; honestly there shouldn't be much moderation needed for the LR thread as all the crap will end up in the general discussion thread.
So please fellow TL denziens, give this idea some consideration. Think about how awesome it would be to have actually live report records for tournaments. Think about sitting at work and being able to get quality real time updates for on going tournaments. Think about how totally fucking sweet it would be to not have to troll through 5 pages of garbage just to find out who's winning. That's why we need to separate these two completely different concepts that have been merged into one thread, to the detriment of both threads.
-edit: clarity
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It is a great idea but isnt that already covered by the home page results?
Day Three Live Coverage
I suppose this becomes an issue if the TL site isn't doing this for a particular tournament though. In which case I think you have a very valid point. I for one stalk the profiles of Drazerk and others when at work to avoid all the spam in an LR thread.
To be clear I think the thread for people to cheer, post funny original pics, and discuss games shouldn't go away but I agree, when Im at work and looking for an actual LR on some tournie on my break it can be nearly impossible/not worth my time to try and scan through the LR thread for updates.
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On April 10 2012 01:01 Synwave wrote:It is a great idea but isnt that already covered by the home page results? Day Three Live CoverageI suppose this becomes an issue if the TL site isn't doing this for a particular tournament though. In which case I think you have a very valid point. I for one stalk the profiles of Drazerk and others when at work to avoid all the spam in an LR thread. To be clear I think the thread for people to cheer, post funny original pics, and discuss games shouldn't go away but I agree, when Im at work and looking for an actual LR on some tournie on my break it can be nearly impossible/not worth my time to try and scan through the LR thread for updates.
Yeah, the problem is TL writers only do this for the major tournaments, and even then only do descriptions of the major games. Plus they are recapps, and not done in real time. I think it would be great to have a community driven, true live report done in real time. Maybe this is wishful thinking, but I really think something like this is possible.
And yeah, trying to find anything in the current "live report" threads is almost impossible. You literally have to go through sometimes hundreds of posts. I think we can do better. Having discussion and live reporting merged into one thread ends up with both being poor.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Not a new suggestion by any stretch, but a timely reminder about the quality of LR threads
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I think TL should try and bring on Moonbear as staff and let him just edit his amazing LR'ing into the OP's.
Seriously we miss you moonbear come back please!
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Isn´t what you propose exactly the quite new live update thread from the staff?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327420
With less people posting in this it´s much more civil, like in everything.
Browsing a normal LR thread for actual update is very heardbreaking and if none of the actual livereporters are "working" (my absolute favourite is Mobius1) it´s simply useless. Except for spaming issues.
The OPs could link to specific points in the thread where certain matches occur, such as a link to the start of Stephano Polt, for anyone following the thread. Entire match summaries could be copied directly into the LR OPs. There would be permanent records of game descriptions that anyone could go back to at any time. Doesn't that sound awesome?
That´s what is done if someone actually LRs. You get a link to the summarypost for a match in the OP.
Abstract from IPL4 Day 3
+ Show Spoiler +18:23 GMT (+00:00): Polt 1-0 aLive. Polt's perfectly-timed scan caught aLive's cloaked banshees just beginning, letting him prepare a defense for the eventual tank-banshee push. Polt amassed a massive marine-medivac army, faking toward the third but then charging the main, doing some damage but falling quickly to blue flame hellions and reinforcing tanks. Polt continued to use his better mobility to threaten multiple areas, both the third and outside the natural. Polt eventually built up enough tanks that aLive's viking and upgrade superiority wasn't enough to hold everywhere at once, handing Polt game one.
18:11 GMT (+00:00): MarineKing 1-0 MMA. Against MMA's CC first, Marineking went for reactored marines, hellions, and quick medivac. MMA got a bunker up before MarineKing could do much time, but MarineKign just lifted into the main to kill 12 SCVs. MMA defended well though, even picking off a medivac. MarineKing stuck on one base for a long time as he teched for siege and banshees, finally expanding extremely late. When his siege tanks arrived, he tried again to bust the natural. MMA's vikings and marauders broke that contain, and he then turned around to try to drop MarineKing. Initially unsuccessful, he hung around with some marines until he was able to distract MarineKing and do heavy damage in the natural. MarineKing turned around to go on the offensive, and with a critical mass of siege tanks, MarineKing was able to force MMA to abandon his natural and eventually the game when his last-gasp drop didn't do enough and his planetary at the 3rd fell.
17:38 GMT (+00:00): David Ting on stage, explaining technical issues that had been causing problems.
17:33 GMT (+00:00): From twitter, the cause of the delay: "Attention: our tech team is currently resolving a connection issue for the players to help protect against disconnects. Stay tuned!"
17:26 GMT (+00:00): Now Playing: T-ara - Roly Poly
17:20 GMT (+00:00): Now Playing: Rainbow - A
17:17 GMT (+00:00): Streams not yet up, still
17:05 GMT (+00:00): Check
16:55 GMT (+00:00): Five minutes!
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On April 10 2012 01:13 Plexa wrote:
Not a new suggestion by any stretch, but a timely reminder about the quality of LR threads
Yeah JingleHell was talking in the ABL thread about some of the other ideas that have been put forward, and there are no shortage of threads with solutions to the issue. (twitter feeds, posting requirements, dedicated blogs, etc.) But the simple fact is, in the current form, tournament topics cannot be seriously called "Live Report" threads. With the exception of a few awesome and dedicated individuals, the replies have nothing to do with LR'ing.
LR threads have basically become default tournament discussion threads; and honestly there is a need for that, there should be a place where I can post cheering on Sheth or HuK or whoever else. But doing so in the LR threads makes it literally impossible to live report the tournament. They are separate things, filling separate needs, which don't mix well: so let's separate them. What's the harm in trying it, it can't be worse than what we currently have.
Maybe no one wants to LR the smaller tournaments, but there's no harm there then we only have a discussion topic. Certainly there would be individuals live reporting the larger tournaments. I honestly think this is worth giving a try.
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It is just overly convenient, people want to stick to one thread which encompasses all discussions about x tournament, be it results, LR, or anger venting. The way I take it, is that "LR Thread" is just a misnomer, a name that was given which doesn't do it rightful justice.( I agree with your intro paragraph)
I agree with Synwave, The Staff Coverage is more than adequate. If everyone legitimately tried to do Live Reporting it would be a clusterbleep, better to have one consensus.
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seems like a good idea to me. drazerk's live reporting usually gets drowned out in the LR threads.
polls should also be banned in LR / live tournament / or whatever you want to call them threads. except for drazerk's "do you recommend this game," they get pretty ridiculous.
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On April 10 2012 03:12 Slardar wrote:
I agree with Synwave, The Staff Coverage is more than adequate. If everyone legitimately tried to do Live Reporting it would be a clusterbleep, better to have one consensus.
Don't get me wrong, the featured news recapps are great but I'd love to have real time updates. It's way more exciting to follow the tournament as it's happening live, than it is to read about it after it's all over. That's the whole idea behind live reporting, it's live.
And I'm not sure there would be any issues, for one thing everyone wouldn't be legitimately trying to LR. 90% of the people who post in LR threads are they because they want to discuss the tournament, not because they want to LR. My guess is you would have a core of dedicated LR'ers who would be doing to work with occational help from others. Everyone else would be posting in the discussion thread. And I'll say it again, it couldn't be worse than the current situation; so why not try it?
Either way, we need to stop calling what we currently have a live report; we're lying to ourselves if we think that's what it is. Discussion and Live Reporting and different things, we should have different threads.
-edit:
On April 10 2012 03:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
seems like a good idea to me. drazerk's live reporting usually gets drowned out in the LR threads.
polls should also be banned in LR / live tournament / or whatever you want to call them threads. except for drazerk's "do you recommend this game," they get pretty ridiculous.
Yeah, LR threads IMO should be just for Live Reporting. That is, specifically talking about what is happening in the game or tournament at that moment. Any polls, posting about casters, posting about balance, etc. etc. count as discussion and really don't belong in LR threads. If we're going to do LR, let's do it right.
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Completely agree.
I think two threads wouldn't work though - the threads themselves would just degenerate into the usual miasma of bad, and presumably moderation would be made harder.
What I've seen before is that dedicated LR posters have their reports incorporated into the OP, or a designated post here or there. What would I'd like to is this used as a general blue print to all Live tourny threads, but that would require there to be more of an 'authoritative' aspect to it from TL (rather than just general posters as it seems usually to be except in the biggest circumstances) - like specific titled LR posters with a code of practice etc. In fact, didn't Probe1 and Drazek do something similar in Feb (before Probe disappeared?).
ATM it seems sometimes that one or two posters do an LR in the thread, but that this is generally lost in the content of the thread.
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On April 10 2012 03:36 Deleuze wrote:
I think two threads wouldn't work though - the threads themselves would just degenerate into the usual miasma of bad, and presumably moderation would be made harder.
I disagree. I think there may have to be some moderation action initially to enforce the idea that the LR thread is JUST for live reports, but after that I bet it would calm down quite a bit. I think the crap would be contained in the discussion thread, it's the random discussion in LR threads that prompt all the flaming/raging/etc. crap as it is.
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LRing should be done through a moving text-banner on the first post. It's been suggested before and it also asks someone specific to do it.
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On April 10 2012 04:52 Torte de Lini wrote:
LRing should be done through a moving text-banner on the first post. It's been suggested before and it also asks someone specific to do it.
Well one person can't watch four streams at once like MLG has. That's why I like the idea behind a community driven LR thread.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
On April 10 2012 03:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
seems like a good idea to me. drazerk's live reporting usually gets drowned out in the LR threads.
polls should also be banned in LR / live tournament / or whatever you want to call them threads. except for drazerk's "do you recommend this game," they get pretty ridiculous.
Drazerk doesn't post the "recommend this game" polls, the creator of the thread does.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
On April 10 2012 03:40 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 03:36 Deleuze wrote:
I think two threads wouldn't work though - the threads themselves would just degenerate into the usual miasma of bad, and presumably moderation would be made harder.
I disagree. I think there may have to be some moderation action initially to enforce the idea that the LR thread is JUST for live reports, but after that I bet it would calm down quite a bit. I think the crap would be contained in the discussion thread, it's the random discussion in LR threads that prompt all the flaming/raging/etc. crap as it is.
I got to say, I really like your idea here Toast. If mods would allow it, I would like to try this thing out for the next upcoming Code S matches
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:23 SeeKeR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 03:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
seems like a good idea to me. drazerk's live reporting usually gets drowned out in the LR threads.
polls should also be banned in LR / live tournament / or whatever you want to call them threads. except for drazerk's "do you recommend this game," they get pretty ridiculous. Drazerk doesn't post the "recommend this game" polls, the creator of the thread does.
Shhh I like the attention ^^
Really the only thing to be lost is the social aspect the LR person has and the possibility of a redundant thread when no one steps up to LR so I am for it.
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On April 10 2012 09:35 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:23 SeeKeR wrote:On April 10 2012 03:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
seems like a good idea to me. drazerk's live reporting usually gets drowned out in the LR threads.
polls should also be banned in LR / live tournament / or whatever you want to call them threads. except for drazerk's "do you recommend this game," they get pretty ridiculous. Drazerk doesn't post the "recommend this game" polls, the creator of the thread does. Shhh I like the attention ^^ Really the only thing to be lost is the social aspect the LR person has and the possibility of a redundant thread when no one steps up to LR so I am for it.
Yeah I think that's my real fear too, that no one actually wants to LR. Based on what I see in the current LR threads it looks like 90% of the posters actually just want to argue and fight about stuff....
Idk how many people are actually around for GSL code S (I've never made it til 4am here in NA, only 1am for GSTL...  ) but it will be interesting to see how it works out. I might actually be able to read a play by play of the matches the next day at work, which would be pretty cool.
Anyway I hope it works. If not, the idea can always be tweaked or scrapped entirely. I think the hardest part might be getting everyone to understand that LR =/= general discussion, since to two have become synonymous for so long on TL.
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On April 10 2012 09:35 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:23 SeeKeR wrote:On April 10 2012 03:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
seems like a good idea to me. drazerk's live reporting usually gets drowned out in the LR threads.
polls should also be banned in LR / live tournament / or whatever you want to call them threads. except for drazerk's "do you recommend this game," they get pretty ridiculous. Drazerk doesn't post the "recommend this game" polls, the creator of the thread does. Shhh I like the attention ^^ Really the only thing to be lost is the social aspect the LR person has and the possibility of a redundant thread when no one steps up to LR so I am for it.
hmmmm..... i apologize seeker. its just that i see drazerk so often that i think of him when i think of LR. except when it comes to k-pop LR, because thats zhurai all the way.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
On April 10 2012 09:47 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:35 Drazerk wrote:On April 10 2012 08:23 SeeKeR wrote:On April 10 2012 03:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
seems like a good idea to me. drazerk's live reporting usually gets drowned out in the LR threads.
polls should also be banned in LR / live tournament / or whatever you want to call them threads. except for drazerk's "do you recommend this game," they get pretty ridiculous. Drazerk doesn't post the "recommend this game" polls, the creator of the thread does. Shhh I like the attention ^^ Really the only thing to be lost is the social aspect the LR person has and the possibility of a redundant thread when no one steps up to LR so I am for it. Yeah I think that's my real fear too, that no one actually wants to LR. Based on what I see in the current LR threads it looks like 90% of the posters actually just want to argue and fight about stuff.... Idk how many people are actually around for GSL code S (I've never made it til 4am here in NA, only 1am for GSTL... ) but it will be interesting to see how it works out. I might actually be able to read a play by play of the matches the next day at work, which would be pretty cool. Anyway I hope it works. If not, the idea can always be tweaked or scrapped entirely. I think the hardest part might be getting everyone to understand that LR =/= general discussion, since to two have become synonymous for so long on TL.
Well, we have LRs quite often u know. I've done it, and so has Mobius_1/KristofferAG/Drazerk/Asha`/etc. etc. We've all done LRs and they're very detailed and thorough. Pretty much play by play (give or take a few from Drazerk, cough cough 2 lines cough cough)
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EPT
