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On April 06 2011 00:26 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 22:49 Cataphract wrote: How is this a Zerg only problem? Scouting before the 7 minute mark as protoss is just as annoying. We have to sacrifice a worker to not even see in the main base at all on most occasions. Once the zerg has lings out, or a terran has marines, we get no scouting until robo or hallucinate(which you won't have before 7 minutes anyway).
I'm not saying that you don't do this, but as I've gotten better, I've learned to read what I can see from sacrificing a worker. Yesterday for example, against a T, I saw him with no expansion and a bunker on the top of is ramp. It means he was teching. I made a cannon in my mineral line before the banshee's even got there. It isn't always going to work, but it is better than nothing. Because you don't straight up die thanks to cushions like force fields and not needing to fast expand. The other difference is design; toss and terran can always make workers but zerg must choose; defending costs econ. If you get faked out on aggression, you fall way behind relative. Not to mention zerg has nothing like a 2 gate robo that is quite safe and versatile against a variety of threats; zerg needs extremely specific responses that don't overlap. Again, very unlike tossterran. In your situation against a blind terran, you only really need to fear that banshee. Were you going to be afraid of a hellion rush? Probably not since that cannon can handle it as well and your units are better against them; you can handle both a hellion or banshee. Zerg needs different reponses for each. Zerg basically just gets punished harder because they need specific responses. Don't know why people still miss this fact. Wait right, cause they don't play zerg and haven't a clue what its like.
Yes, toss don't die immediately to a front push due to ff but it doesn't mean just keep ffing on ramp doesn't really win you the game either. Just because I can keep roaches out of my main base doesn't mean Ill win 1-base toss versus 2 base fully saturated zerg. The idea is no different then zerg building units early game instead of drones. If all toss is doing is staying 1 base and defend with ff. Toss will fall behind macro-wise.
Zerg already have anti hellion/banshee in the form of a unit called the queen which most zerg at least get 2-of sometimes 3 for creep spreading.
You complaint of zerg has to choose between unit or drone. I don't know how you can even complain about that. That attribute is what separate zerg from other two races. Zergs can overproduce units or drones since they all come from 1 production units. If you want to drone, you will out make toss or terran. If you want to make units, you will out "number-wise" terran/protoss. Zerg can always make fighting units and drone at same time. Granted that won't optimize your play. But the notion that having a separate unit producing structure is an advantage just shows how you don't understand the game.
Also getting faked out aggression can happen to all races. I seen terran throw down 3-4 bunkers when I "fake" 4-gate. Then instead of making units, I just throw down an expo and tech to colossus. Sometimes, I play against zerg and he makes lots of lings and I throw down 2 cannons at each mineral line in fear of mutas that never came. If you are preparing for something that is not there you will fall behind it is true for all races.
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On April 06 2011 02:29 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 00:26 dave333 wrote:On April 05 2011 22:49 Cataphract wrote: How is this a Zerg only problem? Scouting before the 7 minute mark as protoss is just as annoying. We have to sacrifice a worker to not even see in the main base at all on most occasions. Once the zerg has lings out, or a terran has marines, we get no scouting until robo or hallucinate(which you won't have before 7 minutes anyway).
I'm not saying that you don't do this, but as I've gotten better, I've learned to read what I can see from sacrificing a worker. Yesterday for example, against a T, I saw him with no expansion and a bunker on the top of is ramp. It means he was teching. I made a cannon in my mineral line before the banshee's even got there. It isn't always going to work, but it is better than nothing. Because you don't straight up die thanks to cushions like force fields and not needing to fast expand. The other difference is design; toss and terran can always make workers but zerg must choose; defending costs econ. If you get faked out on aggression, you fall way behind relative. Not to mention zerg has nothing like a 2 gate robo that is quite safe and versatile against a variety of threats; zerg needs extremely specific responses that don't overlap. Again, very unlike tossterran. In your situation against a blind terran, you only really need to fear that banshee. Were you going to be afraid of a hellion rush? Probably not since that cannon can handle it as well and your units are better against them; you can handle both a hellion or banshee. Zerg needs different reponses for each. Zerg basically just gets punished harder because they need specific responses. Don't know why people still miss this fact. Wait right, cause they don't play zerg and haven't a clue what its like. Yes, toss don't die immediately to a front push due to ff but it doesn't mean just keep ffing on ramp doesn't really win you the game either. Just because I can keep roaches out of my main base doesn't mean Ill win 1-base toss versus 2 base fully saturated zerg. The idea is no different then zerg building units early game instead of drones. If all toss is doing is staying 1 base and defend with ff. Toss will fall behind macro-wise. Zerg already have anti hellion/banshee in the form of a unit called the queen which most zerg at least get 2-of sometimes 3 for creep spreading. You complaint of zerg has to choose between unit or drone. I don't know how you can even complain about that. That attribute is what separate zerg from other two races. Zergs can overproduce units or drones since they all come from 1 production units. If you want to drone, you will out make toss or terran. If you want to make units, you will out "number-wise" terran/protoss. Zerg can always make fighting units and drone at same time. Granted that won't optimize your play. But the notion that having a separate unit producing structure is an advantage just shows how you don't understand the game. Also getting faked out aggression can happen to all races. I seen terran throw down 3-4 bunkers when I "fake" 4-gate. Then instead of making units, I just throw down an expo and tech to colossus. Sometimes, I play against zerg and he makes lots of lings and I throw down 2 cannons at each mineral line in fear of mutas that never came. If you are preparing for something that is not there you will fall behind it is true for all races.
Bunkers can salvage, and a roach rush by nature cannot be fully saturated two base. Your post is so full of random non-sense. You clearly don't understand zerg.
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[B]On April 06 2011 02:29 xbankx wrote:[/B Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 00:26 dave333 wrote:On April 05 2011 22:49 Cataphract wrote: How is this a Zerg only problem? Scouting before the 7 minute mark as protoss is just as annoying. We have to sacrifice a worker to not even see in the main base at all on most occasions. Once the zerg has lings out, or a terran has marines, we get no scouting until robo or hallucinate(which you won't have before 7 minutes anyway).
I'm not saying that you don't do this, but as I've gotten better, I've learned to read what I can see from sacrificing a worker. Yesterday for example, against a T, I saw him with no expansion and a bunker on the top of is ramp. It means he was teching. I made a cannon in my mineral line before the banshee's even got there. It isn't always going to work, but it is better than nothing. Because you don't straight up die thanks to cushions like force fields and not needing to fast expand. The other difference is design; toss and terran can always make workers but zerg must choose; defending costs econ. If you get faked out on aggression, you fall way behind relative. Not to mention zerg has nothing like a 2 gate robo that is quite safe and versatile against a variety of threats; zerg needs extremely specific responses that don't overlap. Again, very unlike tossterran. In your situation against a blind terran, you only really need to fear that banshee. Were you going to be afraid of a hellion rush? Probably not since that cannon can handle it as well and your units are better against them; you can handle both a hellion or banshee. Zerg needs different reponses for each. Zerg basically just gets punished harder because they need specific responses. Don't know why people still miss this fact. Wait right, cause they don't play zerg and haven't a clue what its like. Yes, toss don't die immediately to a front push due to ff but it doesn't mean just keep ffing on ramp doesn't really win you the game either. Just because I can keep roaches out of my main base doesn't mean Ill win 1-base toss versus 2 base fully saturated zerg. The idea is no different then zerg building units early game instead of drones. If all toss is doing is staying 1 base and defend with ff. Toss will fall behind macro-wise. Zerg already have anti hellion/banshee in the form of a unit called the queen which most zerg at least get 2-of sometimes 3 for creep spreading. You complaint of zerg has to choose between unit or drone. I don't know how you can even complain about that. That attribute is what separate zerg from other two races. Zergs can overproduce units or drones since they all come from 1 production units. If you want to drone, you will out make toss or terran. If you want to make units, you will out "number-wise" terran/protoss. Zerg can always make fighting units and drone at same time. Granted that won't optimize your play. But the notion that having a separate unit producing structure is an advantage just shows how you don't understand the game. Also getting faked out aggression can happen to all races. I seen terran throw down 3-4 bunkers when I "fake" 4-gate. Then instead of making units, I just throw down an expo and tech to colossus. Sometimes, I play against zerg and he makes lots of lings and I throw down 2 cannons at each mineral line in fear of mutas that never came. If you are preparing for something that is not there you will fall behind it is true for all races.
If your letting a Zerg get two fully saturated bases and contain you(ie bigger army). Then you have been supply blocked a lot, or something else fatal.
Queen anti hellion? what? How long does it take for 2 queens to kill 3 (blue flame) hellions? not to mention how Terrans often come out with 6-7 regular hellions.
You can't compare a Zerg preparing for a 4gate(which turns out to be fake 4gate -> Expansion), and a Protoss trowing down two cannons for muta defense. A Zerg economy will be shambled, while the P will still have defense against counters with lings, while his economy shouldn't take any damage, it could but what? 1-2 probes? The Zerg often ends up with 5-8 drones less. That also happens earlier in the game.
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i haven't read the whole thread because there have already been a bunch like this and people without a clue keep saying that you can send in 4 overlords at a time and dumb stuff like that. What would be interesting is having a poll asking zerg players how much they lose due to the impossibility to scout. I would estimate that 50% of my losses against terran are due to a ca. 6-8 min push which type I could not scout.
Protoss is less of a problem right now because the only thing that can kill you is a 4gate disguised as an expand or vice versa, and very few people do that. Although if that became more popular I would QQ more.
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At a somewhat high level (EU top200) it has become unplayable lately in any map and positionin ZvZ-ZvP, i managed to work around a build to play ZvT that works wonders and allows me to play Zerg how it's meant to be, funny enough the only reason why it works is the fact that it doesn't rely on scouting, the Stimpack nerf also helped quite a bit. In the other two MUs tho, being scouting virtually impossible at that level, you're left with two choice:
1 You play heavily aggressive yourself, something like what July does, basically you're constantly all in as most early game attacks don't have a transition for Zerg, either you do some game ending damages or the game is gone.
2 You play heavily defensive, overproducing static defenses, queens, buildings and massing drones up until both your bases are saturated and you have your lair tech scouting options available, your opponent will always try to crush you with some sort of all in, should you hold without major losses you most likely have the game won.
As of now, playing reactionary is just not possible, the game is too fast for the current scouting options Zerg has before lair.
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i wonder if terrans and tosses would complain about the same thing, if they could produce workers from raks and gates. wah my eco is scrambled because i had to produce units instead of workers from my raks. Anyway offensiv power early game for the zerg is high really high, which includes their defense is high as well. Though the positional defense power of the other races is way higher. The outcome is that zerg easily has map control early on. As long as he prevents the other races from setting up save spots. So i don't really know, but when i have the map control it means i see more then my opponent . Wonder why a zerg complains anyway, toss can scout around way later, they should be the ones to complain.
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I came across a genius little fact that if you click the mineral patch vs protoss, ur drone will unit walk through the zealot and thus gives you scouting information till the stalker is out.
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On April 06 2011 03:09 FeyFey wrote:So i don't really know, but when i have the map control it means i see more then my opponent . Wonder why a zerg complains anyway, toss can scout around way later, they should be the ones to complain.
Protoss can choose to sacrifice something to get safety. in PvZ they can get sentries and be safe against anything. In PvT they can rush an observer and react in time to be safe against anything.
Yes protoss has to give something up for that, it may be the possibility of a faster expansion or different tech. But there is a safe build.
Zerg has none of this. The only way zerg can survive is scouting what the opponent is doing and react, and scouting is IMPOSSIBLE. We cannot trade anything for safety, every zerg on this planet has tried to find a cookie-cutter build simply to get rid of the ridiculous amount of losses we accumulate before the 10 minute mark, and there is NONE.
I'm frankly tired of explaining this again and again.
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I think the issue falls less on perfect scouting and more on zerg hatch tech bieng too one deminsional. Without an all perpose unit like the marine and stalker at hatch level it leaves you more open having to responed perfectly to what ever your opponent is doing essentially making scouting that much more vital.
So for example in the scenario you described were all you can scout indicates 4gate but really its a voidray rush that's coming, either way your preparing to defend but if you had hydras in hatch tech you wouldn't need to confrim either one you just gotta know he's gonna be aggressive early.
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The long rush distance gives you time to churn out a wave of units to defend. Although much more labour intensive than scouting by P or T, it may be worth it to use lings (as they are the cheapest unit) and spread them around the perimeter of the enemy base to see the enemy unit composition as it leaves their base.
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no amout of rush distance is going to give you detection if you have no lair or magically turn the last 10 drones you made into units. or give you a roach warren instantly, or 4 more queens.
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BW Zerg didn't have as many scouting issues. Ovies gave detection, you had well rounded hydras, and the cheese options weren't as strong (banshees, blue flame hellions, warpgate pushes), nor as quick (no chronos, addon switching, etc.). Not to mention zerglings were also relatively stronger back then. In ZvT you could put down cheaper creep colonies if a MM push was coming, so that when you saw it moving out, you could get them to quickly morph into sunkens very quickly to defend.
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On April 06 2011 03:48 Frobert wrote: The long rush distance gives you time to churn out a wave of units to defend. Although much more labour intensive than scouting by P or T, it may be worth it to use lings (as they are the cheapest unit) and spread them around the perimeter of the enemy base to see the enemy unit composition as it leaves their base.
Keep in mind that the 4gating Protoss, will also get in a additional wave thanks to warp in. If the protoss has a good army advantage when he moves out, you often don't get the chance to respond and make a good enough army to defend it. Scouting the 4gate as it moves out is to late to react to it, you need to prepare for it before that.
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On April 04 2011 16:21 Zerokaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 16:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: What Idra says is true, but you can get two overlords past several marines if they're coming from different directions (not exactly true but i hope you know what i mean)
for example, against P u should almost always scout with 2 overlords (if u dont know what he's doing, aka almost all the time cus he might be tricking u) from 2 directions at the 7:00 min mark
and yes it's a guessing game but if there's 100% chance a zerg can find out then zerg would win every game right? unless you want the game to become whether or not you spent too much into scouting instead of defending a push, or if you want every game to come down to micro'ing against the push I don't believe you know what you're talking about at all, mate. Not only is 2 overlords way too much to sacrifice, the 7-minute mark is long past when marine/scv, 4gate, etc. hits, and longer past how early you need to scout to prepare against everything else. And in what world does Zerg win 100% of games if they scout? EDIT: Found another thing wrong with your post, what maps are you playing on that have 2 different locations to hide an overlord? Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 16:15 xbankx wrote: I seen creative scouts (using ling+drone) by zergs as ling take hits(since its higher attack target) drone can go in base and scout.
Scouting goes both ways, as soon as soon as the first 4 lings comes out. I get pretty much no scouting down until my obs or hallucination is finished. Playing partially blind and reacting to game is part of the game.
I like that idea. Obviously it's not foolproof, but it should help a lot of the time. Other than that, as I said in the original post, I recognize that Protoss doesn't have many scouting options early as well, but it is also far less vulnerable to simply dying without a fight. As far as playing partially blind, it doesn't really exist. Zerg simply loses to the aforementioned builds if they don't have full and accurate information in a timely manner. That is the way the game is.
Marine SCV all in is not an issue, thats old news especially with the new bunker time. YOu can have a spine and should have a blind spine placed asap. And don't give the crap that it puts you behind as a zerg player. People in BW put sunkens all the time really early on. And any how zergs usually float 2k minerals anyhow.
4gate maybe an issue, but thats the way it is in all matchups even PvP.
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On April 05 2011 05:25 karpo wrote: You can't just say that people who don't play zerg at high level should keep out and let the thread just fill up with "i agree" posts, no interesting discussion or solution will come of it.
Quite the opposite, no interesting discussion came of this thread because it's filled with low level players or protoss/terran saying 'drone scout', 'get overlord speed' and 'make more queens' (like we had never thought of doing that), or saying 'well our race can't scout early either!' (when they don't need to nearly as much, and it's basically offtopic).
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The bigger 4p maps have me thinking a lot more carefully about planning my overlord patterns. This is something that really has gotten me thinking, and I'm fairly conflicted about how to use my 2nd overlord.
1st overlord goes cross-map, maybe not straight through the middle of the map but aims for a hiding spot near the cross-position. 2nd overlord goes along an edge (safer route) towards one of the closer positions. As soon as I drone scout and find out where he is, I redirect overlords along safe routes. I want to be able to get 2 overlords to his base without crossing open territory, regardless of where he is. I don't just send my first overlord to the closest base to look for him, because if he is not there it will be poorly positioned.
For example, on backwater gulch, if I spawn 7 o'clock. First overlord goes to 1 o'clock, to the airspace behind 2 o'clocks natural. Second overlord goes to the airspace near 5 o'clocks main.
If the enemy is actually at 11 o'clock: The 1st overlord follows the edge of the map to the airspace at 11-12 o'clock. A new overlord (probably 3rd) from home goes to the gap behind their natural. If they are 2 o'clock, my first overlord is already there, and 2nd overlord works its way north along the edge. If they are 5 o'clock, my first overlord comes down to behind their natural, and 2nd overlord is already there.
I use similar patterns on typhon and tal'darim.
When I plan it out like this, I almost always have an overlord ready to sacrifice by the 5:45-6 minute mark where I would consider doing it. But that doesn't mean i get my perfect scouting information, plenty of things can go wrong.
For example, he can just outright deny the overlord. simultaneously poking the front sometimes works, but usually just tells you that he has at least 4 marines. I haven't lost my first overlord to a hunting marine yet, but it's probably possible. One of the big problems is 2nd overlord not camping at my natural. I try to plan the routes so that it flies over my natural on its way, but usually there is a window before the hatch finishes where I don't have full vision, and I need a roaming drone to try to spot for bunkers or pylons.
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On April 06 2011 03:16 Falcon_NL wrote: I came across a genius little fact that if you click the mineral patch vs protoss, ur drone will unit walk through the zealot and thus gives you scouting information till the stalker is out.
This is neat, but it's no different than just leaving your initial drone scout alive in his base until the stalker is out.
Basically all it allows you to do is delay your drone scout until after he built his zealot...hardly significant.
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On April 06 2011 04:17 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 16:21 Zerokaiser wrote:On April 04 2011 16:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: What Idra says is true, but you can get two overlords past several marines if they're coming from different directions (not exactly true but i hope you know what i mean)
for example, against P u should almost always scout with 2 overlords (if u dont know what he's doing, aka almost all the time cus he might be tricking u) from 2 directions at the 7:00 min mark
and yes it's a guessing game but if there's 100% chance a zerg can find out then zerg would win every game right? unless you want the game to become whether or not you spent too much into scouting instead of defending a push, or if you want every game to come down to micro'ing against the push I don't believe you know what you're talking about at all, mate. Not only is 2 overlords way too much to sacrifice, the 7-minute mark is long past when marine/scv, 4gate, etc. hits, and longer past how early you need to scout to prepare against everything else. And in what world does Zerg win 100% of games if they scout? EDIT: Found another thing wrong with your post, what maps are you playing on that have 2 different locations to hide an overlord? On April 04 2011 16:15 xbankx wrote: I seen creative scouts (using ling+drone) by zergs as ling take hits(since its higher attack target) drone can go in base and scout.
Scouting goes both ways, as soon as soon as the first 4 lings comes out. I get pretty much no scouting down until my obs or hallucination is finished. Playing partially blind and reacting to game is part of the game.
I like that idea. Obviously it's not foolproof, but it should help a lot of the time. Other than that, as I said in the original post, I recognize that Protoss doesn't have many scouting options early as well, but it is also far less vulnerable to simply dying without a fight. As far as playing partially blind, it doesn't really exist. Zerg simply loses to the aforementioned builds if they don't have full and accurate information in a timely manner. That is the way the game is. Marine SCV all in is not an issue, thats old news especially with the new bunker time. YOu can have a spine and should have a blind spine placed asap. And don't give the crap that it puts you behind as a zerg player. People in BW put sunkens all the time really early on. And any how zergs usually float 2k minerals anyhow. 4gate maybe an issue, but thats the way it is in all matchups even PvP.
The difference in BW was that you had creep colonies which were a bit cheaper; sure you had to pay extra to be a sunken, but you could pre-emptively put down the creep colony, then when you saw stuff move out, you could be like "oh shit" and swap them to sunkens to defend. And you don't float 2k when you're still in that vulnerable to rine/scv all in period -__-
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On April 06 2011 04:45 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 04:17 GinDo wrote:On April 04 2011 16:21 Zerokaiser wrote:On April 04 2011 16:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: What Idra says is true, but you can get two overlords past several marines if they're coming from different directions (not exactly true but i hope you know what i mean)
for example, against P u should almost always scout with 2 overlords (if u dont know what he's doing, aka almost all the time cus he might be tricking u) from 2 directions at the 7:00 min mark
and yes it's a guessing game but if there's 100% chance a zerg can find out then zerg would win every game right? unless you want the game to become whether or not you spent too much into scouting instead of defending a push, or if you want every game to come down to micro'ing against the push I don't believe you know what you're talking about at all, mate. Not only is 2 overlords way too much to sacrifice, the 7-minute mark is long past when marine/scv, 4gate, etc. hits, and longer past how early you need to scout to prepare against everything else. And in what world does Zerg win 100% of games if they scout? EDIT: Found another thing wrong with your post, what maps are you playing on that have 2 different locations to hide an overlord? On April 04 2011 16:15 xbankx wrote: I seen creative scouts (using ling+drone) by zergs as ling take hits(since its higher attack target) drone can go in base and scout.
Scouting goes both ways, as soon as soon as the first 4 lings comes out. I get pretty much no scouting down until my obs or hallucination is finished. Playing partially blind and reacting to game is part of the game.
I like that idea. Obviously it's not foolproof, but it should help a lot of the time. Other than that, as I said in the original post, I recognize that Protoss doesn't have many scouting options early as well, but it is also far less vulnerable to simply dying without a fight. As far as playing partially blind, it doesn't really exist. Zerg simply loses to the aforementioned builds if they don't have full and accurate information in a timely manner. That is the way the game is. Marine SCV all in is not an issue, thats old news especially with the new bunker time. YOu can have a spine and should have a blind spine placed asap. And don't give the crap that it puts you behind as a zerg player. People in BW put sunkens all the time really early on. And any how zergs usually float 2k minerals anyhow. 4gate maybe an issue, but thats the way it is in all matchups even PvP. The difference in BW was that you had creep colonies which were a bit cheaper; sure you had to pay extra to be a sunken, but you could pre-emptively put down the creep colony, then when you saw stuff move out, you could be like "oh shit" and swap them to sunkens to defend. And you don't float 2k when you're still in that vulnerable to rine/scv all in period -__-
Whats your logic makes absolutely no sence. Not only did the Sunken have a longer build time it was more expensive. And your saying the 50 minerals saved before converting into a sunken really make a difference? People these days are so greedy.
Terran FEs bunker 100minerals Toss FEs Cannon 150 minerals Zergs complaining on using 100 minerals to be safe from an all in while taking a heavy econ lead. Priceless.
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On April 06 2011 04:17 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 16:21 Zerokaiser wrote:On April 04 2011 16:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: What Idra says is true, but you can get two overlords past several marines if they're coming from different directions (not exactly true but i hope you know what i mean)
for example, against P u should almost always scout with 2 overlords (if u dont know what he's doing, aka almost all the time cus he might be tricking u) from 2 directions at the 7:00 min mark
and yes it's a guessing game but if there's 100% chance a zerg can find out then zerg would win every game right? unless you want the game to become whether or not you spent too much into scouting instead of defending a push, or if you want every game to come down to micro'ing against the push I don't believe you know what you're talking about at all, mate. Not only is 2 overlords way too much to sacrifice, the 7-minute mark is long past when marine/scv, 4gate, etc. hits, and longer past how early you need to scout to prepare against everything else. And in what world does Zerg win 100% of games if they scout? EDIT: Found another thing wrong with your post, what maps are you playing on that have 2 different locations to hide an overlord? On April 04 2011 16:15 xbankx wrote: I seen creative scouts (using ling+drone) by zergs as ling take hits(since its higher attack target) drone can go in base and scout.
Scouting goes both ways, as soon as soon as the first 4 lings comes out. I get pretty much no scouting down until my obs or hallucination is finished. Playing partially blind and reacting to game is part of the game.
I like that idea. Obviously it's not foolproof, but it should help a lot of the time. Other than that, as I said in the original post, I recognize that Protoss doesn't have many scouting options early as well, but it is also far less vulnerable to simply dying without a fight. As far as playing partially blind, it doesn't really exist. Zerg simply loses to the aforementioned builds if they don't have full and accurate information in a timely manner. That is the way the game is. Marine SCV all in is not an issue, thats old news especially with the new bunker time. YOu can have a spine and should have a blind spine placed asap. And don't give the crap that it puts you behind as a zerg player. People in BW put sunkens all the time really early on. And any how zergs usually float 2k minerals anyhow. 4gate maybe an issue, but thats the way it is in all matchups even PvP.
The only reason zerg players put sunken colonies in BW is that double expand is the zerg counter to protoss/terran fast expand. It's standard for zerg to expand twice while the other races were expanding once.
The issue here is that zerg has no tier 1 anti-air except queens, which can't be used to attack. Terran and protoss can defend both ground and air rushes using the same units and counterattack using those same units. Zerg can't. Switching the hydralisk to lair and the roach to hatchery was a mistake.
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