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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 07 2009 16:14 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2009 02:10 FrozenArbiter wrote: Anyway, pretty sure they do apply some pretty serious mathematical analysis of builds, from what I've heard. That sounds cool, do you know anything more about that? Has it been mentioned in any interviews? No I only know what little I heard from Kennigit. But yes, it does sound pretty interesting.
On November 07 2009 16:00 kyloc wrote: the stats that u just showed are simply plain wrong :S ... btw you show arrogance talking this much about a game you don't really know much about...And I believe that blizzard designers know more about RTS design than you... This core/gimmick talk just doesn't apply to RTS games...
Yes orcs dominated for a while (they are not dominating now btw) and that is because of the evolution of the orc meta game ... it have nothing to do with last patch... It is the same situation with sc... Sometimes some races in SC dominate for month ...
Nowadays all match ups are around 50% ecxept for UD vs ORC with is around 60% for orc favor... WC3 is a in a great shape right now all units are being used in pro games (except for taurens,shamans and necros and btw orc go T3 vs UD) ...
What WC3 currently need is just new maps for new strats to emrge ... (same as SC did btw) What? Orcs are definitely doing the best out of all the races still :S
Anyhow, there are much more recent (and much more comprehensive) stats than those, I'll try to find them. From memory, the only matchup with serious balance issues was UD vs Orc and NE vs UD... Hu vs Ne and Hu vs Orc were pretty close.
EDIT: Scroll down a lil, look to the right: http://www.sk-gaming.com/wc3/ Human vs Orc 1067 - 1038 - 51% Human vs Night Elf 1141 - 1156 - 50% Human vs Undead 666 - 744 - 47%
Undead vs Night Elf 1186 - 1009 - 54% Undead vs Human 744 - 666 - 53% Undead vs Orc 733 - 1082 - 40%
Orc vs Undead 1082 - 733 - 60% Orc vs Night Elf 1525 - 1454 - 51% Orc vs Human 1038 - 1067 - 49%
Night Elf vs Human 1156 - 1141 - 50% Night Elf vs Orc 1454 - 1525 - 49% Night Elf vs Undead 1009 - 1186 - 46%
Pretty damn balanced imo.
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On November 07 2009 23:15 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2009 16:14 heyoka wrote:On November 05 2009 02:10 FrozenArbiter wrote: Anyway, pretty sure they do apply some pretty serious mathematical analysis of builds, from what I've heard. That sounds cool, do you know anything more about that? Has it been mentioned in any interviews? No I only know what little I heard from Kennigit. But yes, it does sound pretty interesting. Show nested quote +On November 07 2009 16:00 kyloc wrote: the stats that u just showed are simply plain wrong :S ... btw you show arrogance talking this much about a game you don't really know much about...And I believe that blizzard designers know more about RTS design than you... This core/gimmick talk just doesn't apply to RTS games...
Yes orcs dominated for a while (they are not dominating now btw) and that is because of the evolution of the orc meta game ... it have nothing to do with last patch... It is the same situation with sc... Sometimes some races in SC dominate for month ...
Nowadays all match ups are around 50% ecxept for UD vs ORC with is around 60% for orc favor... WC3 is a in a great shape right now all units are being used in pro games (except for taurens,shamans and necros and btw orc go T3 vs UD) ...
What WC3 currently need is just new maps for new strats to emrge ... (same as SC did btw) What? Orcs are definitely doing the best out of all the races still :S Anyhow, there are much more recent (and much more comprehensive) stats than those, I'll try to find them. From memory, the only matchup with serious balance issues was UD vs Orc and NE vs UD... Hu vs Ne and Hu vs Orc were pretty close. EDIT: Scroll down a lil, look to the right: http://www.sk-gaming.com/wc3/Human vs Orc 1067 - 1038 - 51% Human vs Night Elf 1141 - 1156 - 50% Human vs Undead 666 - 744 - 47% Undead vs Night Elf 1186 - 1009 - 54% Undead vs Human 744 - 666 - 53% Undead vs Orc 733 - 1082 - 40% Orc vs Undead 1082 - 733 - 60% Orc vs Night Elf 1525 - 1454 - 51% Orc vs Human 1038 - 1067 - 49% Night Elf vs Human 1156 - 1141 - 50% Night Elf vs Orc 1454 - 1525 - 49% Night Elf vs Undead 1009 - 1186 - 46% Pretty damn balanced imo. Also from what I recall the most dominant players were Orc (Grubby, Fly) early on and later Night Elf (Moon). This is the same effect we saw in Starcraft with the most dominating players, and the crowd favorites being Terran. The early wins from Terran absolutely has an effect on how many people choose that race, and more players for a certain race will usually mean a higher caliber of player for that specific race. Protoss had Reach, Nal_Ra, Anytime sure, but when you compare that to iloveoov and Nada you see the Terran dominance still held.
Since the early crowd pleasers for WC3 were Orc I believe it means that many more people played Orc and developed into good players for that race. Obviously this doesn't account for the entire disparity in the matchups right now (especially OvU) but I think it still makes a difference.
Another factor that fits into the same idea is that there are generally less WC3 players and therefore less top tier players and also less up and comers to challenge the current top players. The strategy and rankings at the top of the pyramid stagnate because it's the same players playing against the same players on the same maps.
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Sweden33719 Posts
You've got that backwards actually, Night Elf was definitely the dominant race for a long time, infact I'd say they are directly comparable to Terran in that regard, with Moon being by far the most dominant player, spawning a ton of NE players.
There's a reason Moon's nickname is "The 5th Race" ;p + Just look at all the top tier Elf players from Korea, as compared to Human, Orc and UD players:
Moon Check Soju Remind Soccer (Freedom was a NE player as well)
Lyn Focus Who ....Violet?
Michael aka RohJinWook Uhh... Reprisal? I'm not sure who else there is that's top tier. Myth maybe?
All the Korean UDs retired, but there used to be a ton of good Korean UDs... Lucifer FoV Susiria Gostop.... Oh right, Space hasn't retired.
Orc, pre-Blademaster era (let's say that started 2008 or late 2007? I'm not 100% sure), actually was considered pretty weak (but not vs UD) race by most, especially vs NE (and Human tower pushes were kinda hard to stop).
Then Orcs figured out how to stack the blademaster and turn him into a 1 man killing machine and now they've won everything in the past 1.5~years.
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On November 08 2009 00:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: You've got that backwards actually, Night Elf was definitely the dominant race for a long time, infact I'd say they are directly comparable to Terran in that regard, with Moon being by far the most dominant player, spawning a ton of NE players.
There's a reason Moon's nickname is "The 5th Race" ;p + Just look at all the top tier Elf players from Korea, as compared to Human, Orc and UD players:
Moon Check Soju Remind Soccer (Freedom was a NE player as well)
Lyn Focus Who ....Violet?
Michael aka RohJinWook Uhh... Reprisal? I'm not sure who else there is that's top tier. Myth maybe?
All the Korean UDs retired, but there used to be a ton of good Korean UDs... Lucifer FoV Susiria Gostop.... Oh right, Space hasn't retired.
Orc, pre-Blademaster era (let's say that started 2008 or late 2007? I'm not 100% sure), actually was considered pretty weak (but not vs UD) race by most, especially vs NE (and Human tower pushes were kinda hard to stop).
Then Orcs figured out how to stack the blademaster and turn him into a 1 man killing machine and now they've won everything in the past 1.5~years. Ahh I recall now, Dayfly was the big one I meant to mention, was quite big very early on in WC3, before Moon started winning everything in sight.
You are correct about Moon's dominance though. I still think Grubby had a lot to do with Orc being big because of his international appeal.
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Do people think that Blademaster thing will ever change? Either by patch or metagame changes?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Given the age of the game, I would guess not without map changes o.O Of course, the balance changes between the time the blademaster started doing good and now have been extremely minor so it's not impossible an equally big revolution could take, place, but it seems unlikely.
I'm not an expert tho.
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sometimes I stay awake during the morning after a no-sleep night and, torn by sleep deprivation, I go by lengthy posts like this, absorbing all bytes, phrases, rants, ideas, trash talking, stupidities, non-sense'ing, arguing, jealousness, ego inflating, all sort of shit; pretty much like walking down a suburban street in a metropolis. and I feel sorry about those prostitutes trying to earn something. I feel sorry about those tough guys trying to prove something. and I feel sorry about the workers coming back home late, having to stick with something to endure.
anyway. you have a Lego set and wanted to assemble a still scene from "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". you have 2 kinds of pieces: simple blocks and mystical blocks. the later will only work for a single, and only a single, specific, "pixel" of the scene. you decide to use 60% mystical and 40% simple. you build it. it comes that something is wrong with the expression in the face of the beautiful Jen, and you want to change it. but her face is all built with mystical pieces. the mystical pieces behave in a way that if you change one, the others around will change too. what you do? you begin to fix it, but every change you make, 60% of the picture changes too, leading to undesirable effects through the scene. you have a deadline to fix it, otherwise your exhibition will fail miserably and you'll lose a lot of respect. then you think you shouldn't begin with so much mystical pieces, that you could get the scene done with harder thinking but more solid right from the beginning.
(you should had get what ix meant by now, if no, then go to sleep, please.)
@armed_: oh no, but then you decide to calculate all the changes because this way you can predict every single change you make! that's perfect reasoning, isn't? so you open a book, called "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and summon Deep Thought, the supercomputer that can calculate the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. yes buddy, you can solve your little problem now.
@ix: your main flaw in arguing here was to put the words "Blizzard" and "inexperienced" in the same sentence. then you didn't stop and put "SC2" and "WC3" in the same post. you really don't know how these people are unbiased and really fights for justice and righteousness, welcoming every new stranger meanwhile. (guess who are the fanboys out there.)
ps: I agree with those saying it's too early to say SC2 is full of mystical pieces. But I can be afraid of another design failure as wc3 (whoever isn't convinced about wc3 being a failure, please, at least say it's good for playing DotA). We all love SC, that's why we're here, so people protecting it beforehand is normal, people afraid of a failure too.
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On November 08 2009 03:42 FrozenArbiter wrote: Given the age of the game, I would guess not without map changes o.O Of course, the balance changes between the time the blademaster started doing good and now have been extremely minor so it's not impossible an equally big revolution could take, place, but it seems unlikely.
I'm not an expert tho. doesnt wc3 only have like a few set maps played in the leagues? sorry for the noobiness, I heard something to this effect before though...
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On November 08 2009 20:26 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2009 03:42 FrozenArbiter wrote: Given the age of the game, I would guess not without map changes o.O Of course, the balance changes between the time the blademaster started doing good and now have been extremely minor so it's not impossible an equally big revolution could take, place, but it seems unlikely.
I'm not an expert tho. doesnt wc3 only have like a few set maps played in the leagues? sorry for the noobiness, I heard something to this effect before though...
Yes, I don't know it all but it boils down to:
-certain map elements (fountains, size, spawn positions, close expansions) can favour a certain race dramatically -item drops can sway the game one way or another (see blademaster stacking for example)
Hence, it is extremely difficult to balance a WC3 map due to the diversity amongst the races and heroes. Diversity is nice and all, but if there isn't a good baseline which can be seen throughout the races map balance will be horrendous and map creation stagnant.
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On October 31 2009 03:38 ix wrote: Outrageously stupid shit
Look dude, the game will come out when it's ready. If a game is this important to your life, I suggest you step away from the computer for a while and strive for some other aspects of your life. This computer game will come out when it's ready.
How come none of you can understand that these games come out when they are DONE and then get played for years and years. Would you prefer they release SC2 now and have it be a failure and the game collapse in 2 years, or might you prefer to wait until the developers say it's ready and they release it?
Grow up people, it's just a video game, and regardless of how much you bitch and moan that you, "won't take it anymore," yes you will because you're little ragenerds who'll scoop the game right up when it comes out. It's honestly pretty pathetic to observe the way people act about SC2.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Did you read the thread? Because it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.
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On November 11 2009 02:32 ix wrote: He's just trolling.
Oh, we just assumed that's what you were doing with your nonsense.
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Maybe the delay is also because they need to program for Windows 7 and the new Directx 11.
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I still wish Blizzard just made another "expansion pack", could add new units better graphics etc... without ruining the great competitive nature of starcraft. SC2 will be a total disaster and thats why its getting delayed they are delaying the inevidable. my only question is why make a new sc when the first expansion worked great and made the game better, but blizzard wasnt smart enough to realize this. In the end everyone will go back to SC BW and this will all be for nothing, dont believe me.... wait all we have is time.
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Regarding the OP
Random speculation + gross oversimplification of game design does not = elegant analysis
I'll give you an example: if you have to constantly go outside your speculative bubble to prove your theory it begins to fall flatter with each attempt to prove it by going to other examples because your just speaking from pure speculation.
c wat i did thar
Nothing wrong with speculation but the post is all about drawing conclusions from that speculation and putting them forth as some form of factual content. It isn't.
Maybe your right, maybe Blizzard is delaying the release of SC 2 because they are all standing around like monkeys scratching because they can't figure the difference between gimmick and balance or maybe there is a huge business model they are trying to create going forward as a company and they are making sure they do it exactly how They want to...like their previous games which were delayed and changed the course of gaming, again, and again. Yup sounds like gimmicky monkeys to me.
This post is a gimmick.
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On November 11 2009 15:30 Eagle-NP- wrote: I still wish Blizzard just made another "expansion pack", could add new units better graphics etc... without ruining the great competitive nature of starcraft. SC2 will be a total disaster and thats why its getting delayed they are delaying the inevidable. my only question is why make a new sc when the first expansion worked great and made the game better, but blizzard wasnt smart enough to realize this. In the end everyone will go back to SC BW and this will all be for nothing, dont believe me.... wait all we have is time.
starcraft is perfectly balanced. adding an expansion would change everything and require tons of tweaking and rebalancing.
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I have been wondering what would happen if blizzard made a move (through a patch) to make units like queens, dark archons, valkyries, scouts and all the other useless (or near useless) units more viable.
Hell, even a UMS map where NOTHING is changed except the costs (or attacks or whatever) of these units.
It would be interesting to see what making, say, just the queen more viable would do to the SC pro scene in terms of shaking up old B.O's.
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The annoying thing is that if even if you just made a old unit marginally more viable, it may unbalance a match up seriously as the opponent would have more builds to deal with.
The entire map pool and game flow may change in a highly interlocked game like starcraft.
Now if Starcraft was more of a "ix" type game with more linear rules dealing with this won't be the as hard.... (but the game wouldn't be as interesting, imo)
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Funny thing is that if a small change to some of those units had been done 10 years ago, people would still now be saying SC is perfectly balanced.
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