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What is the best way to defeat the early expand with engineering bay build order as Protoss? In the replay (link below) Silent_Control uses it against Reach, where Reach uses a DT build order and does almost no damage early on. At closer positions I was think perhaps early zealot drop, with dragoon support, and at further positions double expanding yourself, but I'm really not sure.
What is the best response to this build, assuming that the Protoss uses the 'standard' 1gate, goon/obs build order? Please provide links to replays if possible. Thanks!
http://ygclan.vgaclub.co.kr/?m=replay&board=gosureplay&assort=&search=silent_control&searcht=player&page=1&rno=25852
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I would go for a double expand+_+. However, sometimes I expand to my nat and then go to reaver and harass a little bit and then take the min only. Just don't try to immitate ppl+_+, do what you think is right at that moment+_+;
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Dts can usually do some damage atleast, like a few depots or something to slow the terran down. Reaver might be good if you catch a T off guard, but if he's quick and can transfer scvs out fsat enough..you'll be behind again. If he's not a moron and leaves them at his nat, protected, rather than trying to send them back and losing them before he gets enough tanks to secure his main again, maybe try to kill some depots or buildings that are unprotected..but by no means, lose that reaver. Once you lose the reaver, he can relax and play normal again..when you still have it floating around his base, it keeps him on edge. Another cute reaver tactic is to leave it outside the T base, and when he comes out, let it take 1 shot at whatever (reaver has more range than unsieged tanks) and then pick it up and run away.
The double expand is pretty good if you don't try to go overboard on probe production and get ran over by the terran's first attack.
Expanding a little after the terran(he has to take the time to float his out and land it, making them about even) and getting like 3 more gates in the mean time, allows you to really out produce him fast..because he has to spend all that money on factories before he can start macroing, while you get 6 gates pumping right afterwords, and can hopefully overwhelm his first move, then take more expansions. If you get gas on your nat, you can probably squeeze a HT drop in maybe a little before mid game to reduce his economy as well, while expanding more. HTs are a good unit PvT..all terran units are weak on the hitpoints, and if you catch them coming out in a clump, they usually siege all tanks in a clump, and that is free pickings for HTs.
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Oh..btw, all this is based on LT.
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Most Terrans get an ebay when they expo, so you basically want to know what is the best counter for fast expoing terran. I would have to say double expo and mass, nothing fancy.
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Thank you for the responses!
I guess the 'best' counter is double expand with HT drops to hurt his economy and storms to kill clumped up tanks.
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On April 14 2004 13:30 ForLoversNotFighters wrote: Thank you for the responses!
I guess the 'best' counter is double expand with HT drops to hurt his economy and storms to kill clumped up tanks.
Sounds like a winning plan to me!
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i have not seen the replay, but if you go for dt and aren't able to scout this build right away, i would expand immediately upon seeing the CC and then stall with dt for as long as possible killing turrets, scvs, stopping cc from landing (long).
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zealot bomb kill alot of workers expand twice during don't lose your cliff as it's the only thing he can do fork into storm drop --> mass zealots --> outright kill zealot/goon --> take other main --> carrier and/or mass units make mass units --> win fight _then_ expand --> deny mineral only
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all good comments. Just time your things right (massing/dropping ht/expanding)
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I think zlot bomb is mass zealot drops+_+; like from 4 shuttles?
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You have to be careful because most Terran will either 1. mount a very fast, fairly large attack on you after early expand or 2. start running drops as soon as the exp is up and running
You still have to be prepared for shit. I prefer to try and delay their exp with goon harass, building pylon, etc, while I get my own exp up, and pump 2 gate goons... having started cit and third gate, i will try to attack with a 4 zeal drop + whatever goons and zeals i have up front. If they're trying to drop and went only 2 factories right after exp ,this can be a pretty quick kill. You should take another exp while you're doing this and add about 6 more gates, while keeping your 3 gates running.
It's a less power-based approach and lets you have enough troops to stop all the different harassment tricks that T can pull early. If you get storm and dts promptly you'll be fit to fight a big charge.
It's pretty hard to describe precisely how to execute this strat without a replay or something but the attack w/ speedzeals and drop comes quite quickly and I've had a lot of success with it
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10 to 1 you will die to this build because you try to counter with double expo right off the bat. delay it until like 60-80 supply unless you're way ahead.
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United States32539 Posts
its pretty much learning the timing of his rush and knowing how much powering you can get away with by experience (and rep watching)
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i think what louder said is what ive heard before as "the standard" response to terran early expo, ive seen it in reps too.. it sounds ilke a good idea because of exactly what he said, some terran will early expo and then try to take advantage of the expected double expo, so what he says to do woud make sure they arent doing that. of course if it turns out they are just massing then you're set back a little.. mm right?
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you should realise that if you started out with 1gate -> robo -> obs, and he goes 1fact exp, that he's already countered you and you are in fact not doing too good
i'd say, in far away positions, double expand, choose carefully the place of your 2nd expansion to make his push as hard as possible, and don't expand anymore than that. (i mean, don't be too greedy like WGT toss, you'll still have to expand more in certain situations)
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go for your natural and for an island if you have shuttle. That prevents you for an early push.
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It is better to exp at your nat and then harass a little bit trying to kill some scv,supplies,tanks and then exp again.
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I've found that against the 'standard' Protoss opening (gate, obs, gate) if the Terran uses this build you are already behind. If the Terran pushes early, then you wish you had not double expanded and it can be a real battle to beat the push back before he reaches your base.
At the moment I've taken to using Corsair to help control the push during the mid-game, disruption web can be VERY useful on clumps of tanks and I think its harder for the T player to kill corsair compared to templar (but maybe that is just me >_<). Also corsairs are a little bit different from what the Terran player is expecting most of the time, in addition to this you already have Fleet Beacon/Stargates ready for carriers if you want to go take that path.
Speaking of carriers, these can be very risky to switch to I think. A good terran will be scanning to see them coming, or will see that you have too few ground troops and he is pushing too easily and "feel" them coming and react accordingly (ie. with Goliaths, and perhaps wraiths). Unless you are able to quickly build up a large group of carriers (realistically 8+), they can be fatal for the Protoss.
Thank you very much again for the responses and keep them coming!
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