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ZvT question. Is there not a more solid alternative than mutas mid game?
I would appreciate not immediately jumping to defend the awesomeness of muta, muta micro and so on (which I love btw, it's so awesome) - it's just that this strategy, unlike ZvP or essentially any non-mirror match-up - seems to just not be solid. It's very strong but it's kind of fragile, like a very powerful gimmick that works a lot of the time but ultimately, something seems to be missing in it at a fundamental level, at least to me (and i'm no pro by any means, big noob currently and may be very wrong, ~1500 zerg atm - i'm simply trying to understand this match up better).
Mutas - positives: - it slows the T down enough so you can expand - get hive tech - get more expansions and defend with swarm - it's hugely threatening with good micro and can do devastating dmg for even seemingly minor mistakes in T defense - a huge positive is that it also automatically makes T drops midgame less viable - you automatically have anti-vessels tech - you generally get map control for a good portion of midgame (unless it's something like 5rax but then it's more micro-dependent)
It's a strong strategy, no doubt but ultimately it doesn't appear solid, at least to me. I've watched a game where Jaedong crushed the terran's mid game with mutas. 10-15 scv's killed with 3-4 scv's left in the nat, like 2-3 size'able mm pushed killed of fully, that kind of stuff. He wasn't making many extra mutas to accomplish that, if any. After that, it was still SUPER CLOSE. He barely, barely defended his 4th even with swarm, had a close call with nydus that, had it failed, would lose the game and it looked very fragile. The transition out of mutas on the condition of them slowing the terran enough, seems like a very fragile and weak part in the chain of that strategy.
Let's put it like that - usually when a great midgame advantage is secured, it results in snowball and opponent being steamrolled with proper play. No close calls. For example, get a big advantage mid game in ZvP - zerg can usually steamroll because you just have that much more supply, army and economy to reinforce it, there's nothing they can really do except tricks to catch you off guard ht drops dt corsair etc. However in ZvT, assuming muta strategy - you can get very big advantage mid game and there still ARE close calls, it's still the terran pushing you and having the map control after they get the critical m&m mass, there's just something fundamentally off or not solid in this strategy, at least the way I see it now.
Now, non-mutas mid game is also hugely problematic due to raw strength of m&m, m&m micro, drops mid game, m&m contains - it's very difficult to come up with any alternative strategy that would actually be better that mutas mid game.I'm also aware that lurkers openings are somewhat viable, even Zero claimed on stream that you can go up to 2k on kr ladder with lurker opens ZvT - however, the assumption is that once you get high enough, mid game muta ZvT is the best option and that's the real question.
It's strong and works a lot of the time but at some fundamental level, it appears somewhat fragile and it's very interesting to me how all the pros stand by it as the best possible strategy. Is there really not a more solid mid game alternative that would work at the highest levels of play, I guess that's a rhetoric but were or are there any recent developments in ZvT, nobody tried any different way of playing that was somewhat effective and looked promising?
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That is how the ZvT matchup looks like and there is nothing u can do about it. I believe it frustrates every zerg that even if u do a lot of damage to your opponent, the game is still super close. But generally mutas opening is stronger than lurker (in general, because u always need to remember some maps will benefit lurkers) because:
a)mutas are way more mobile b)they're great in defending against drops c)they're great to use in mid game when terran wants to take 3rd or just at harassing new made expansions d)they're great co clear potential mines
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it seems that you are struggling in zvt laddering for you to prompt such a thread?
its true that zvt early-midgame is generally revolves around muta. like above gosu post says lurker openings are generally only good in certain maps where MM gets funneled through ramps/bridges. i think there are pure hydra builds which you can do in response to certain terran 111 openings but im not a fan of those and hardly explore such since im a fan stickler for 2 hatch muta.
seeing your mmr if you are really struggling and wan to get better i can 100% safely say that your mechanics need work. not just being able to muta stack micro well and develop an eye for gaining efficient trades (proficient at hold micro, patrol micro, moveclick micro and when to use them respectively), but also being able to maintain production while microing (3sm 4sm 5sm or w/e your hotkey are while u move your muta around).
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thanks a lot for the answers. really cool to have an answer based on pro-level experience as well, much appreciated.
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Drop 3 hatch style. It's completely outdated
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Any modern day maps favor Lurker opening in ZvT?
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If you are prioritizing to kill a lot of SCVs, you should add a lot of sunkens with exact timing of lurker morphs. If you are prioritizing to kill MMs, then you should focus taking down turrets where its placed at barracks.
Killing SCVs = your muta is wounded. It is hard to hold the frontal attack. Killing 12 SCVs means nearly nothing from training a lot of marines because Terran already has like 35~40 SCVs. Also, 1 base terran can macro 4 barracks non-stop. having like 3 SCVs at the natural means nearly nothing except slowing down the Terran's tech.
Killing MMs = you have the map control, pressuring the opponent. This is a great time to take down turrets at barracks side because Terran has to defend 3 sides(front, macro building, main). Once there's no turrets at barracks side, you can start focusing there more because terran's building is blocking so much and glitching every single marine from defending. Any ground units can start attacking the natural at the same time also.
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On September 05 2019 03:03 coffeesession wrote: thanks a lot for the answers. really cool to have an answer based on pro-level experience as well, much appreciated. The difficulty I think you're missing is that, barring very niche scenarios, at equal skill, Z lair tech dies to T 100% of the time. There are some really cool edge cases, like hydra lurker, but you generally need to survive to hive tech. And thanks to tanks, it's really hard to do so just by turtling alone, you have to somehow pin the terran and keep them from moving out to kill you. You can read a bit of the Teamliquid Final Edits on he-who-shall-not-be-named v T if you want to see how hard the zerg has to work to get to hive tech, which is the only point at which the MU reaches even footing for the zerg.
Edit: You might want to devise something around drop play, which would serve the same purpose of pinning the terran. But mutas are super larva cheap, and mineral cheap, which is what lets you get enough drones to get to hive tech a bit faster. You'd have to make way more units with drops. Backstabs alone run into the same difficulty but are even harder to execute. I think that's why most people have settled on mutas as the pinning unit of choice. I could be a bit dated on this understanding though
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Plenty of gosu answers already. Quite simply, the answer to your question is no, there is not a better alternative.
Mutas are too versatile. You can attack, defend, and scout with them (I like to compare it to reaver opening in pvt). You get more info about what Terran is doing compared to lurker opening, so you can tech more appropriately in response to the Terran build. With lurker opening you are more or less teching blindly. The price you pay for this versatility is the fragility that you mentioned (1 miss control can cost you the game)
All this considered, if you feel like you don't have the APM/multitask to make Muta worth it, you will probably have more success with lurker opening (up to a certain level, as mentioned above).
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