PvT reaction to 1rax FE
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garsh0p
United States30 Posts
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yubo56
662 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6631 Posts
Another option is to proxy 2 gates near their main and go for 3 gate all in goon Or proxy a robo near the bunker and go for fast reaver to break it, this can work sometimes | ||
supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On December 03 2017 05:00 jello_biafra wrote: I've seen players sometimes going for 21 nex skip the goon and go for 19 nex against 1 rax CC Another option is to proxy 2 gates near their main and go for 3 gate all in goon Or proxy a robo near the bunker and go for fast reaver to break it, this can work sometimes Problem with 19 nex is that it assumes you scout and see the 1 rax CC before your nex which... pretty much makes you save face against 1 rax CC but automatic loss against anything like FD or 2 fact. | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
i would advise at least trying to win some games with zealots against 1 rax FE so you get a feel for that cause I won quite a bit of games that way, when they don't get to wall zealots are pretty strong and make him delay his stuff (like making more marines or using scvs off mining etc) lose some little things probably or just lose the game. try stuff like steal their gas @main and kill their scv building CC with zeal manner pylon sometimes shield battery etc^^ the 4 fact timings are very hard, i think there are many ways the game can get to that point but generally if you are not sure how many facts the T is making after his first expo and you haven't seen him try to expo either then you can't assume that it's safe for you to get a 3rd expo before making like 5 gates and more if you confirm it, I guess what kills the 4 fact timings of terran is if you go 6 gates before 3rd lots of goons and zeals, or if you go early 2 reavers (?) or if you delay and annoy him a lot with DTs...... but in some cases you might be good with actually doing the reverse thing by taking a 3rd nexus so early that you end up having that bigger economy in time to counter that attack with 8+ gates also possibly the fast arbiter off 2 bases can potentially be a counter to these 4 fact push??? if you have time to get one arbiter out before the T moves out, just the cloaking field should prevent him from reaching a point of attack | ||
Soulforged
Latvia868 Posts
With 1gate nex you do not invest in an unnecessary 2nd gate, and your goon is done faster so you force more bunker repair. Other than that...normal adaptations are to get a (slightly) faster 3rd by skimping a bit on units. Reaver openings are good, since biomech pushes off of rax CC are really strong against pure goon 3rds, and you cannot reliably scout them in time. | ||
garsh0p
United States30 Posts
On December 03 2017 18:49 Soulforged wrote: rax CC is one of the main reasons 1gate nex is used more offen than 21. With 1gate nex you do not invest in an unnecessary 2nd gate, and your goon is done faster so you force more bunker repair. Other than that...normal adaptations are to get a (slightly) faster 3rd by skimping a bit on units. Reaver openings are good, since biomech pushes off of rax CC are really strong against pure goon 3rds, and you cannot reliably scout them in time. When you're talking about 1gate Nexus, do you cut goons after the first goon to take a Nexus, or do you continually produce goons until you have enough money for the Nexus? | ||
jimminy_kriket
Canada5466 Posts
On December 03 2017 09:39 ProMeTheus112 wrote: early zealot(s) is nice to threaten that no? you can just make 1 or 2 zeal or more from forward gate or not and try to counter his immediate reply, sometimes they get to wall very advantageous but I think you can still just go nexus + tech then or tech + nexus i would advise at least trying to win some games with zealots against 1 rax FE so you get a feel for that cause I won quite a bit of games that way, when they don't get to wall zealots are pretty strong and make him delay his stuff (like making more marines or using scvs off mining etc) lose some little things probably or just lose the game. try stuff like steal their gas @main and kill their scv building CC with zeal manner pylon sometimes shield battery etc^^ the 4 fact timings are very hard, i think there are many ways the game can get to that point but generally if you are not sure how many facts the T is making after his first expo and you haven't seen him try to expo either then you can't assume that it's safe for you to get a 3rd expo before making like 5 gates and more if you confirm it, I guess what kills the 4 fact timings of terran is if you go 6 gates before 3rd lots of goons and zeals, or if you go early 2 reavers (?) or if you delay and annoy him a lot with DTs...... but in some cases you might be good with actually doing the reverse thing by taking a 3rd nexus so early that you end up having that bigger economy in time to counter that attack with 8+ gates also possibly the fast arbiter off 2 bases can potentially be a counter to these 4 fact push??? if you have time to get one arbiter out before the T moves out, just the cloaking field should prevent him from reaching a point of attack In my experience fast arbiter doesnt come out fast enough to deal with a 4 fact followup. But in my experience nothing does as i have a 100% loss rate against it. Really struggling against that one. | ||
garsh0p
United States30 Posts
On December 04 2017 04:25 jimminy_kriket wrote: In my experience fast arbiter doesnt come out fast enough to deal with a 4 fact followup. But in my experience nothing does as i have a 100% loss rate against it. Really struggling against that one. I'm also struggling super hard against it, hence this post I've experimented with all sorts of builds and Arbiters does seem too slow to matter. A fast 3rd with gateway only units seems a little hard. Reaver might be the best option but I'm still having issues optimizing my opening to get enough units. | ||
TT1
Canada9927 Posts
On December 03 2017 05:00 jello_biafra wrote: I've seen players sometimes going for 21 nex skip the goon and go for 19 nex against 1 rax CC Another option is to proxy 2 gates near their main and go for 3 gate all in goon Or proxy a robo near the bunker and go for fast reaver to break it, this can work sometimes proxy robo (after standard 1 gate range into goon opener with constant goon production) > keep pressuring bunk with goons > shuttle is done, pick up 2 goons > start reaver > unload 2 goons in t's main, micro and try to snipe the 1st tank > go back with shuttle and pick up reaver + 1 goon > drop/micro in t's main > if t defends his main well (super fast turrets already in place etc.) hit his nat with ur goons + reaver > target scvs repairing bunk with reav that's a strong cheese vs 1 rax gasless fe, of course you're supposed to expo and eco up while you're doing all this | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
so I think the best counter to 4 fact is more gates before 3rd, or reavers with enough gates too so if you are not sure that T is going for muscle or eco after nat, to be safe you may need enough gates.. or get to scout his base with early ob but then even if you have enough gates you will need to be good at engaging or just delaying the T because 4 fact at this moment is very strong, its just if T fails to do damage, you will probably be ahead in tech/eco after. so the tactics/micro then matter a lot if you go for more gates and T is trying to expo fast and not lot of facts, you have potential to delay his 3rd, so its part of the strength of building more gates before 3rd I think its about trying not to be too greedy on your eco depending on how your game sense goes of what the T is doing. If you are not actually one base ahead in pvt early, its not that bad I think if you have built a nice force and get to keep a lot of it or don't let it get traded bad. you could expo at the same time as T or a little after and still have good chance to win the game | ||
GoShox
United States1834 Posts
On December 03 2017 05:00 jello_biafra wrote: Another option is to proxy 2 gates near their main and go for 3 gate all in goon I don't usually like giving cheese builds in threads asking for general advice with regards to dealing with standard builds, but this is a very strong strategy since T's are so freaking greedy nowadays. You can actually proxy 3 Gateways to go up to 4 and end up with like 6 Goons with a round of Zealots which is really hard to stop. You proxy your third Pylon with your scouting Probe, and end up making the 3 Gateways at around ~27 supply. The key is to keep track of the Terran's scouting SCV's (if you kill the first one, they'll usually send a second one out and you'll want to see where it goes). Also, since you usually take Probes off of gas for a faster Nexus anyways, it's best to do this in plain sight of the Terran so it looks like everything you're doing is standard. Taking the Probes off gas is beneficial to you anyways since you're always needing minerals rather than gas. You only want to show a normal amount of Dragoons (the amount you make out of one Gateway) as you harass his Bunker until you're ready to dive in with your Goons/Zealots. This is also really good in series play because if a T doesn't scout well, and you're good at disguising it as a standard build, then the Terran is basically always gonna be afraid of getting all-inned. | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
proxy robo and proxy 3/4gate are the traditional cheeses versus 1 rax fe, and both of them are very, very strong imo proxy robo used to be common on 2 player maps after forcing a 1rax fe via gas steal. rough BO below + Show Spoiler [proxrobo] + 8 pylon 10 gate 11 gas 13 core 16 pylon 17 goon 19 range 21 goon 24 pylon (proxy) 25 goon 27 robo (proxy) goon shuttle goon bay goon reaver (elevator 4 goons into main) goon observatory expand goon gate gate (optional) you do need to do some damage but you don't have to kill T to break even pressure bunker until shuttle is almost done, then move all your units over to elevator move your proxy probe in front of the T nat when you elevator to make sure they don't sneak vults out generally take your 3rd off 2 or 3 gates and play standard from there don't forget pylons or you'll lose i like proxy 4gate a lot, i think it's strong but it's pretty allin. BO below + Show Spoiler [4gate] + 8 pylon 10 gate 11 gas 13 core 16 pylon 17 goon 19 range (1 off gas) 21 goon 24 pylon (proxy) 25 goon gate gate gate 29 goon 31 pylon (cut all probes here) dragoon *4, pylon zealot *4, pylon zeal or dragoon *4 cut gateway units here unless you can break into the main resume probes, expand and get robo pressure the bunker as soon as goon range finishes start sniping scvs as soon as you get 6 goons (or break the bunker if T doesn't react fast enough) dive tanks with your round(s) of zealots don't forget pylons or you'll lose | ||
Sifu Open
Czech Republic5 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On December 05 2017 06:10 Sifu Open wrote: U have so many options if u see rax expansion from terran.. u can play both, greedy or agressive.. double expanding is not a problem, neither dropping the shit out of terran, dt rush, zealot runby.. the only defense the terran will have for quite a long time will be most likely his 1 bunker and 4 marines + scvs.. Double expanding is a problem because your obs will come out later than 1 gate FE (3 goon expand). With 21 nex, your window to be as greedy and getting an early 3rd is lot smaller and sometimes can cause in autoloss if you're not careful about when to get 3rd vs when to prepare for timing attacks after terran 1 rax FE's, especially since you don't hit their economy as hard as 1 gate FE. | ||
garsh0p
United States30 Posts
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
A more advanced macro build is to 1gate expand, pump goons non-stop from your gateway (but never queue more than one dragoon), robotics facility then take a third. Add three more gateways immediately after you put down your third, as experienced terrans would scout your third and go for a duo factory timing, usually with 3-5 tanks. I wouldn't recommend this build to anyone below an ICCUP rank of B as it is extremely micro intensive, but it is preferred on larger maps due to the low mobility of terran units. | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
On December 05 2017 17:08 FoR_BlueS wrote: A logical followup from a 21nexus build for average skilled players is to pump goons until you have 6 and force kill SCVs before tanks come out. If you're lucky you get to destroy the bunker if the terran doesn't react fast enough, securing an easy win. This strategy is only effective if your opponent is close to you, otherwise drop a robotics facility and go for a third, add two more gateways after that, and either add another 4 gateways and a citadel (if opponent is 5 fact pushing) or tech to arbiters (if opponent is going for a third). A more advanced macro build is to 1gate expand, pump goons non-stop from your gateway (but never queue more than one dragoon), robotics facility then take a third. Add three more gateways immediately after you put down your third, as experienced terrans would scout your third and go for a duo factory timing, usually with 3-5 tanks. I wouldn't recommend this build to anyone below an ICCUP rank of B as it is extremely micro intensive, but it is preferred on larger maps due to the low mobility of terran units. siege finishes at 4 goons vs 21nex gate nex robo nex is ok but it's pretty risky, it's very weak against rax fe into any kind of fast timing push. the terran does have to do it blind (unless you let an scv out) but at the same time you're taking a blind 3rd gate nex robo gate gate (nex) is generally safer and more common gate nex robo gate reaver nex is good as well, it's one of the more popular builds nowadays | ||
garsh0p
United States30 Posts
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