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Hey guys,
I'm rather new to Brood War and have been trying to find build orders and just in General, a playstyle that works for me on the ladder, specifically for the PvZ matchup, but have some more questions:
1) From reading the PvZ build orders, guides and some Forum Posts here, it seems like the General Consensus in modern Brood War is that the Neo Bisu Build is the most "Standard" way to Play PvZ. Now what Kind of intimidates me from running it, is the description that it Needs really good Multitasking and that poorly performed Micro or macro will make it lose even vs the Zerg builds that it's supposed to soft Counter. Is there any Major advice that People could give me about this? Should I practise other build orders first, and Switch back to the Neo Bisu build when I'm comfortable enough? Or do I just go through Trial & error with the build until I "git gud"?
2) In the Explanation of the Neo Bisu Build order it says that the build order was created because 3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra rendered the "original" Bisu build ineffective, and that it's the best answer People found to that build... but if I read the 3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra article, it says that this build soft Counters the Neo Bisu Build? Is one of those Statements wrong, or did I misunderstand something?
3) The Forge Fast Expansion article says that "multiple Zerg all-ins were created to soft Counter this" and prevent/delay an early Expansion by Zergling rushes or Hydra busts. This again confused me, because it seems to imply FFE builds were weaker to early all-ins than 1 base builds. I wonder how this works exactly, because for example None of the 1 base tech builds described in the PvZ build articles have cannons or a Forge early?
Aka if I Play a 1 base tech build, do I wall off my main's ramp with the early Gate etc., in a similar way that I would wall off my Natural in FFE? Or do I rely on the Zealot at 13 to defend my base from Zergling Rushes?
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From what I understood, the "only" or at least MAIN reason why FFE builds are considered Standard, is because it allows you to get a better economy to not fall behind vs macro-oriented Zerg builds, while still being RELATIVELY safe vs early Aggression. Now on low mmr macro oriented Zerg builds seem really rare, so would it be a better Option in my Situation to Focus on 1 base tech builds instead?
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Already thanks for your replies, and I hope those questions weren't TOO idiotic or that I overlooked something that's obvious for others. Looking Forward to the answers
Sart
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1) i would not concentrate on a "buildorder" as much as a basic plan (see below, mainly go units go expand go harras go kill) build orders are complex but u mainly need to have a baisc concept first, and a fast expand normaly means u are not in charge and its easier for weaker zergs to play vs you
2)there are no really hard counters in the game so everything is more or less a soft counter, but if u change a build and dont be "standard" alot of zergs have more problems because they cant read ur timings in their notebook of "protoss standard timings"
3)if you go fast expansion, you normaly have problems scouting so a 2hatch bust a ling bust a hydra bust is often scouted later then when u have units u can attack him with, and if u scout a bust late, and have no canons ... ur dead, and if u overmake canons and he build drones ,,, ur faaar behind. thats why i try a 1gate pressure expand which is newby friendlier
some ideas: i am only on like 1750 elo but maybe that helps if ur new so far i am unbeaten in pvz.
i have basicly no builds in any matchup i just go for a 1 or 2gate pressure with alot of zealots and a probe starting harras alot at the start so this guy can never drone up to much, when i see he has alot of lings i fall back and in the meantime i did nexus forge at natural and then building a canon there so he cant counterattack instant.
i take gas go stargate corsair then because i am shit vs mutas so i dont want him ever go mutas and if i see it i go dual stargate (dont lose ur corsairs)
from here i just mass and go fast zealots +1 +2 attack upgrades storm archon and attack, the corsairs scout so i can see a lurkertech and put in a shitton of dragoons in my army or a muta switch so i mass corsairs.
so a zealotpressure into expansion.
for me i like it more because if u fe he basicly contains u and u can scout late so he can bust u easy, also with sairs u see a hydrabust in time so u can build 4+ canons to hold
also 20-30% of the games u just win with ur zealots because they are to ignorant to build a sunken
some of the games u can put in reaverdrops and try something else, u also can try to put the gateway in the wall in at ur natural and pressure from there but thats hard vs early attacks to hold and normaly not needed until higher ranks.
overall i give u 1 importent factor: BE A PAIN IN THE NECK
harras with corsairs send zealots to his new expansions send a zealot drop in his main go out with a few goons and kill lurkers no matter what just DO something! alot players on lower ranks have their builds planned out, so ur zealot harras in the start screw their build timings then when u harras him nonstoop he cant think to replan his builds and often totaly fails the buildorders, it not works vs good players but on lower ranks it rly destroys the enemy when u keep him busy
PS: try to find a few zergs u can play 10+ games against knowing their strategy so u can test ur builds
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Hi. In my experience, if you are new.... fuck build orders.
Play for fun with the race that gives you the most pleasure of controlling. Once you have the basics down after 50'ish games then you can focus on build orders. Until then make sure to watch every loss you have to identify why you lost.
And as the ladder is "unstable" right now with the matchmaking I would advise you to throw the first 10-15 games. Just enter and surrender. After that you should have a playable and enjoyable experience of laddering up and learning broodwar and your race.
Hope this helps
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1) Overall if you wanna go into a safe macro game vs Z you will need to mass up on sairs, usually 7 sairs with +1 attack to 1 shot scourges (vs standard lair into 5/6 hatch builds) in order to protect your high templars from getting sniped by mutas. That's the basic theory behind massing sairs vs Z.
That said, if you want an easier style of play at lower lvls (this also works quite well at higher levels) try going for 2 sairs into 8 gate zeal/goon/ht play on 2 bases. The 2 sairs are to harass a bit and fake like you're massing up on sairs, you never wanna let your opponent know what you're doing. You also wanna check Z's nat gas with your 1st sair, if he has it then that usually means he's going into mutas, you're gonna want to keep massing sairs if he is. By defending his early game mutas with your sairs that should put you in a pretty big lead, you can macro normally behind that.
Versus standard 5 hatch spire with 1 gas (info you gain after having scouted Z's nat with your 1st sair) you basically mass up heavily on 2 bases/8gates and make about ~5 hts (you overmake HTs in this situation in order to have backup temps in case z tries to snipe them with mutas). Mass up heavily on goons so you can punish Z if he tries to fly in and pick off your hts. Because you massed up heavily on 2 bases you should have more than enough gate units to fight his main hydra comp.
2) 3 hatch lair > spire into 5 hatch and eventually 6 hatch hydra on 3 bases is a style that allows z to get scourges out in order to protect their ovis from getting harassed by sairs. The current meta revolves around zerg going hydras and tech switching into lurkers or mutas depending on the situation, another alternative is for z to take a main base nat as their 3rd and just turtle to hive tech. Styles vary depending on the map, spawn positions etc.
3) FFE is weak to hydra busts IF you're not active with your scouting in the early game. You need to have a probe constantly scouting z's main in order to see whether or not hes taking his gas, teching to lair or dropping a hydra den. Depending on Z's tech choice your response will be different, protoss is the reactionary race in the MU so you need to adjust your play depending on what you scout.
And before you ask this, no you can't go FFE and then just blindly make 10 cannons in order to defend a potential hydra bust. You're doing that blind, it's not solid play. If Z decides to macro up normally you'll end up being really far behind tech-wise and eventually eco-wise, you're just giving away way too much map control.
4) If youre 1 base teching you just need to block your ramp with zeals (if z is going 9 pool speed you need to add probes to your ramp block, 1 zeal with 2 probes behind it, until you eventually get a 2nd zeal out). You can't wall your ramp with buildings properly, the only reason people make their gate at their ramp is so they can rally their zeal quicker to the ramp, that's not necessary tho.
5) First of all 1 base tech builds are map dependent, you go 1 base tech if your nat is too hard to wall off (on maps such as Nostalgia, Python etc.). To answer your main question, no you shouldn't go for 1 base tech builds on standard maps like FS/CB (well you can but that's only at higher levels).
If your goal is to get better at BW you need to improve your mechanics, the best way to do that is by going into macro games safely. FFE is actually a great way to punish low eco/allin zergs, you just need to probe scout actively in order to defend w/e they're doing. I understand that constant probe scouting might be hard to do for newer players but you need to start getting into good habits early.
6) Np, here's a great ressource if you're trying to learn how to play properly: http://korhal.info.pl/#/korhal.
Watch protoss VODs and pay attention to how they play in the early game, that's extremely important. Stork or BeSt are probably better players to watch for beginners (BeSt for example is known for going 2 base 8 gate a lot vs Z), Bisu plays a very technical/multitask oriented style which is hard to duplicate. Also, try to avoid going 1 gate gasless zealot expo for the time being. You can add that build to your repertoire once you're more accustomed to the game. Your main goal as a new player should be to go into the midd-game safely in order to practice proper micro/macro, hotkeying your army, engaging properly etc.
Glhf on your journey and remember to embrace your losses, BW is a very hard (but rewarding) game so you will ultimately lose a ton of games. There's no way around it, that's the only way you're going to improve
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Lots of good advice in this thread. I main zerg and I find zealot builds super annoying. Zealots are super strong if you are unprepared, and if the zerg is prepared there are ways to micro zealots to make them annoying regardless, putting them on ramps or sticking them near minerals.
I think going zealots also increases your skill overall, as it forces you to multitask and increase your speed which is critical for improving in starcraft. There are also a bunch of different things that happen when you make zealots (chaos mode, zerg making decisions that you see and react to), which means more meaningful decisions and learning from mistakes. Going forge cannons first, not scouting and losing all map control and playing soft rps can build bad habits.
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@Drake: Thanks a lot for the quick Reply man And yeah, the issue with late scouting is exactly what I'm facing right now with FE builds. I can't Keep my initial scouting probe alive forever, and once it dies, I'm basically stuck with either waiting for my first Sair, or hoping my Opponent somehow lets me sneak a second probe into his base, which is almost impossible.
Now about your suggestions
I did consider a Zealot rush off of 9/10 or 10/12 gates too, but I feel at this Point it would be the wrong Thing for me to do, because this doesn't really teach me proper macro Play and I basically "hope I win with early zealots". But if I do that, I might rise a bit on ladder, but eventually I'm gonna start facing good Players who don't get thrown off by that, and I'm back to the same Problem... so by doing what you suggested, I just "delay" the issue, not solve it, or?
I was thinking about running something like +1 Speedzealots off of one base (instead of off a FE), because that would give me earlier pressure than with something like the Neo Bisu build (because I leave out an early Stargate, 2nd base, etc.), but it's not an "all-in", so I still learn how to macro, simcity etc. correctly. Would that be an idea?
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Oh snap, tons of new replies while I was typing. One sec, reading everything x)
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Ok, so, again, thanks everyone for the quick and detailled replies. Right now I'm reading 2 contradicting opinions out of @TT1's and the other's Posts though.
If I understood it right, TT1 basically says that, summed up, I just Need to "git gud", so I shouldn't try to adapt my build orders to low mmr Zergs, but instead basically "force" a macro game, so I already know how to do it once I meet more competent Zergs who won't just try to rush me and then either win or lose in 5 minutes?
While the other Posts said that I should be more proactive earlier in the game, and only once an early Zealot attack was unsuccessful, Switch to the macro game?
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^ Yup! Imo that's how you accelerate your learning process. Play safely in the early game (with proactive probe scouting) in order to reach the midd-game so you can improve your mechanics. Once your mechanics are at an acceptable level you can start integrating 1 gate zealot pressure builds into your playstyle.
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That's what i feared, yeah... like I said earlier, I know that adapting to the low lvl gameplay of People just kinda "delays" the real issue, because eventually I'll meet better Players.
I just kinda hoped it wasn't true x)
But again, thanks a lot everyone for your replies! I guess that also means no more DT rushes vs Terran anymore, and that I should learn how to fight a Tank/Vulture army in the open instead
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On August 23 2017 19:16 SartPls wrote:@Drake: Thanks a lot for the quick Reply man And yeah, the issue with late scouting is exactly what I'm facing right now with FE builds. I can't Keep my initial scouting probe alive forever, and once it dies, I'm basically stuck with either waiting for my first Sair, or hoping my Opponent somehow lets me sneak a second probe into his base, which is almost impossible. Now about your suggestions I did consider a Zealot rush off of 9/10 or 10/12 gates too, but I feel at this Point it would be the wrong Thing for me to do, because this doesn't really teach me proper macro Play and I basically "hope I win with early zealots". But if I do that, I might rise a bit on ladder, but eventually I'm gonna start facing good Players who don't get thrown off by that, and I'm back to the same Problem... so by doing what you suggested, I just "delay" the issue, not solve it, or? I was thinking about running something like +1 Speedzealots off of one base (instead of off a FE), because that would give me earlier pressure than with something like the Neo Bisu build (because I leave out an early Stargate, 2nd base, etc.), but it's not an "all-in", so I still learn how to macro, simcity etc. correctly. Would that be an idea?
oh no i dont mean zealot RUSH no 9/10 either 10/12 i talk abotu a 11 gate or if 2 gates building probes between 1. and 2nd gate with pressure that lets z react while u expand and build forge etc. it can be that its not a good strat for perfect micro zergs on high level but on lower level the zerg still defend it like either he think there is only 1 zealot or 2 and then loses drones, or he overract thinking its 9/10 and over build zerglings while u just fall back.
i think 4 zealots and 1 probe is harder for the z to micro against then for a p to micro with so he has to defend micro his zerglings often build sunkens change his build miss 3rd expansion and all while u expand.
again the zerg is under pressure makes the wrong decisions and u have alot informations its basicly a 1-2 gate into expand macro hardcore style with a bit of harrass in the start (i guess tt1 level my build is horrible but on lower levels its just nice and again i dont have any build orders i curretnly use its just a free style art becuase i am so lazy to learn all builds right now)
if u can get the build orders right 1-1 then for sake do it i just find it hard to remember everything and just like to have a "core" basic to build specific builds on, so in case something strange happens u have a core u can fall back to
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On August 23 2017 20:05 SartPls wrote:That's what i feared, yeah... like I said earlier, I know that adapting to the low lvl gameplay of People just kinda "delays" the real issue, because eventually I'll meet better Players. I just kinda hoped it wasn't true x) But again, thanks a lot everyone for your replies! I guess that also means no more DT rushes vs Terran anymore, and that I should learn how to fight a Tank/Vulture army in the open instead
Well you can still experiment and have fun . It all depends on what your goals are.
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On August 23 2017 20:11 TT1 wrote:Well you can still experiment and have fun . It all depends on what your goals are.
I mean ultimately, my Goal is to become as good as possible in BW (for a non-korean ;D ), so yeah.
The "fun" Thing is that I actually KNOW what my main issues are right now. It's
a) I can't really process info I get from scouting into how I should Switch up my build order. Like... I can spot Basic stuff, like a 5 or 9 pool because of how "easy" it is to Scout that. But Things like you mentioned, that a missing gas in his natural indicates a Hydra bust, etc., I just don't know those (yet).
And also with how much I still rely on copy pasting build orders from TL, I don't know how to adapt them once I actually HAVE scouting info. Like, if I know he's going for a Hydra bust, what do I do? I guess I add 2-3 more cannons to my natural, but apart from that? Stick to my Basic game plan? Ignore a stargate and go right into HTs? etc.
b) I Keep forgetting to add more production Buildings. You're talking about 8 gates, I don't think I've ever had that much in a single game no matter how Long it took x) After 4 I just usually Forget to add more, and eventually, if it goes to the late game, mass Stargates for Carriers instead, etc.
c) I still do some beginner mistakes, like just forgetting to have probes mine gas from my assimilator if I have to Micro Zealots for defense at the same time, and once I defended the attack and realize I had no probes mining gas, I'm so far behind with my build due to the lack of gas, that I Panic and have no clue what to do.
d) I tend to turtle too much, I should be more aggressive once I have a certain number of Zealots and just move out to try and gain map Control
But yeah, I guess again, the solution to all of that is... spam games, and get used to it. Also I should propably read and learn the other races' build orders too to more easily process info from scouting
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On August 23 2017 20:09 Drake wrote:oh no i dont mean zealot RUSH no 9/10 either 10/12 i talk abotu a 11 gate or if 2 gates building probes between 1. and 2nd gate with pressure that lets z react while u expand and build forge etc. it can be that its not a good strat for perfect micro zergs on high level but on lower level the zerg still defend it like either he think there is only 1 zealot or 2 and then loses drones, or he overract thinking its 9/10 and over build zerglings while u just fall back. i think 4 zealots and 1 probe is harder for the z to micro against then for a p to micro with so he has to defend micro his zerglings often build sunkens change his build miss 3rd expansion and all while u expand. again the zerg is under pressure makes the wrong decisions and u have alot informations its basicly a 1-2 gate into expand macro hardcore style with a bit of harrass in the start (i guess tt1 level my build is horrible but on lower levels its just nice and again i dont have any build orders i curretnly use its just a free style art becuase i am so lazy to learn all builds right now) if u can get the build orders right 1-1 then for sake do it i just find it hard to remember everything and just like to have a "core" basic to build specific builds on, so in case something strange happens u have a core u can fall back to
Oooh, I see, sorry for misunderstanding you then! But yeah, I guess I'll try doing some earlier Zealot harass, just not sure if I want to dedicate extra Probes for that, maybe the 1-2 initial scouting probes, but not more.
4 Zealots sounds like a solid number, will definitely try that out, thanks again!
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On August 23 2017 20:46 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 20:09 Drake wrote:oh no i dont mean zealot RUSH no 9/10 either 10/12 i talk abotu a 11 gate or if 2 gates building probes between 1. and 2nd gate with pressure that lets z react while u expand and build forge etc. it can be that its not a good strat for perfect micro zergs on high level but on lower level the zerg still defend it like either he think there is only 1 zealot or 2 and then loses drones, or he overract thinking its 9/10 and over build zerglings while u just fall back. i think 4 zealots and 1 probe is harder for the z to micro against then for a p to micro with so he has to defend micro his zerglings often build sunkens change his build miss 3rd expansion and all while u expand. again the zerg is under pressure makes the wrong decisions and u have alot informations its basicly a 1-2 gate into expand macro hardcore style with a bit of harrass in the start (i guess tt1 level my build is horrible but on lower levels its just nice and again i dont have any build orders i curretnly use its just a free style art becuase i am so lazy to learn all builds right now) if u can get the build orders right 1-1 then for sake do it i just find it hard to remember everything and just like to have a "core" basic to build specific builds on, so in case something strange happens u have a core u can fall back to Oooh, I see, sorry for misunderstanding you then! But yeah, I guess I'll try doing some earlier Zealot harass, just not sure if I want to dedicate extra Probes for that, maybe the 1-2 initial scouting probes, but not more. 4 Zealots sounds like a solid number, will definitely try that out, thanks again!
jeah u just use the starting scouting probe that u scouted with
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I think ur focusing too much on This (build) beats this Z (build). If you are knew pick a style even an outdated style as the bisu BO that you mentioned works it just in modern pro games its rather outdated, but one gate into corsairs builds are totally legit. Anyways pick a BO and style that you want to play (forge expand for heavy macro game or one base for early pressure etc) and then just practice the shit out of it doing the same thing over and over again that way you will build the foundation.
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On August 23 2017 22:38 CoL_BabyZerg wrote: I think ur focusing too much on This (build) beats this Z (build). If you are knew pick a style even an outdated style as the bisu BO that you mentioned works it just in modern pro games its rather outdated, but one gate into corsairs builds are totally legit. Anyways pick a BO and style that you want to play (forge expand for heavy macro game or one base for early pressure etc) and then just practice the shit out of it doing the same thing over and over again that way you will build the foundation.
Yeah, I guess I Need to do that until all the mechanics and "Basic" build orders are memorized without having to think twice.
Out of curiosity, if the Neo Bisu Build (+1 Sair/Speedlots) is outdated in the pro Scene, what's the most common PvZ Build there nowadays?
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On August 24 2017 02:49 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 22:38 CoL_BabyZerg wrote: I think ur focusing too much on This (build) beats this Z (build). If you are knew pick a style even an outdated style as the bisu BO that you mentioned works it just in modern pro games its rather outdated, but one gate into corsairs builds are totally legit. Anyways pick a BO and style that you want to play (forge expand for heavy macro game or one base for early pressure etc) and then just practice the shit out of it doing the same thing over and over again that way you will build the foundation. Yeah, I guess I Need to do that until all the mechanics and "Basic" build orders are memorized without having to think twice. Out of curiosity, if the Neo Bisu Build (+1 Sair/Speedlots) is outdated in the pro Scene, what's the most common PvZ Build there nowadays?
Make sure you check out the website that TT1 linked http://korhal.info.pl/#/korhal
It lets you watch all the FPVODs from progamers so you can see which builds are most popular but ALSO how to execute them. This is such a huge resource that no one had access to during the pro BW era, make sure you make the most of it now that we have it.
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On August 24 2017 02:52 -Frog- wrote:Make sure you check out the website that TT1 linked http://korhal.info.pl/#/korhalIt lets you watch all the FPVODs from progamers so you can see which builds are most popular but ALSO how to execute them. This is such a huge resource that no one had access to during the pro BW era, make sure you make the most of it now that we have it.
I definitely will. Didn't try to ask for a detailled build/execution like there is on liquipedia, it was more out of interest what's the current "Standard", since +1 Sair/Speedlot apparently doesn't do the trick anymore for pros?
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On August 23 2017 20:39 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 20:11 TT1 wrote:Well you can still experiment and have fun . It all depends on what your goals are. I mean ultimately, my Goal is to become as good as possible in BW (for a non-korean ;D ), so yeah. The "fun" Thing is that I actually KNOW what my main issues are right now. It's a) I can't really process info I get from scouting into how I should Switch up my build order. Like... I can spot Basic stuff, like a 5 or 9 pool because of how "easy" it is to Scout that. But Things like you mentioned, that a missing gas in his natural indicates a Hydra bust, etc., I just don't know those (yet). And also with how much I still rely on copy pasting build orders from TL, I don't know how to adapt them once I actually HAVE scouting info. Like, if I know he's going for a Hydra bust, what do I do? I guess I add 2-3 more cannons to my natural, but apart from that? Stick to my Basic game plan? Ignore a stargate and go right into HTs? etc.[...]
I tried writing some articles about that:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/438605-pvz-counter-all-ins-and-cheese http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basics
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