On October 23 2016 10:39 c3rberUs wrote:
Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good.
Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good.
he beat jangbi, that must count for something
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 23 2016 10:39 c3rberUs wrote: Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 07:21 FlaShFTW wrote: >counting larva in there. Larva is pretty silly haha. Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good. he beat jangbi, that must count for something | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On October 22 2016 03:01 Cryoc wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch. Yes. I take it fairly seriously. Technics is a pretty darn good and well respected player, and to my knowledge isn't know as a particularly whiny player from to complaining. Yes, he plays Z and that likely biases his opinion to an extent, but at the same time T>Z has always been acknowledged to a degree, even more so than Z>P generally has been. I'm not sure how true it holds for foreigner level play though, especially given it only really seems to hold true for excellent, cream of the crop terrans. I suspect there it's much closer to T=Z. Now, I don't think the balance is that bad either, as even at pro level it's generally been not worse than 55/45. That's a decent discrepancy, but not enough that good play struggles to overcome it. Start talking 60-65% WR and I think we'd have a real problem on our hands. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On October 23 2016 10:58 ZeroChrome wrote: Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 10:39 c3rberUs wrote: On October 23 2016 07:21 FlaShFTW wrote: >counting larva in there. Larva is pretty silly haha. Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good. He actually beat Flash 2-0 today as well lol. Welp ZvT imbalance disproved. Nothing to see here people. | ||
dr0pship
Canada520 Posts
sunken colony HP increase 50 | ||
Shalashaska_123
United States142 Posts
On October 22 2016 23:51 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 23:04 Tanzklaue wrote: On October 22 2016 22:39 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs. flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? i don't think comments like "they seem to not play seriously really" are of much value. maybe the zergs aren't playing seriously either, who knows? it is right that historically speaking terran is the msot domiannt race, but it also is the race with the msot pro players and zerg historically isn't too far off. if anything, protoss is the race most struggling, as they had the least success in almost every single relevant big league from what i have gathered. what the stats are saying is that flash is way better at tvz than any other terran to the point where no zerg is even close to threatening him in the amtch up currently. we also see that any terran that isn't among the absolute top is struggling somewhat in the match up. so i'd actually argue that the match up is pretty balanced except at the level of basically flawless play, where we see that terran/flash dominates. EDIT: also whenever i turn into flash's stream, he jsut offraces or palys FFA or does random vs random on BGH, so he doesn't paly serious msot of the time either. what does this say about the other terrans then if they can't keep p with flash who is jsut enjoying himself? yeah, the argument "they don't play seriously" might be flawed. But still the most number of dominating players for the longest period of time was Terrans. I didn't know that Terran is the race with most pro players. If true, this simply means that playing terran gives you the best chances to succeed when attempting to become a pro in Korea. That argument alone is pretty much sufficient to describe the terran race, at least marginally, as the best one for high level 1v1 BW. You are also correct to notice that these numbers show, to quote myself once again from this thread, "that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol." Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? In the face of the fact that EffOrt's only win in this sample is described as "The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game.". Hello, LRM)TechnicS. I think the reason Flash is dominating is because there is no active Zerg player at the moment that matches him skill. Effort is kind of holding an even record against him (1 win and 3 losses), but 4 games is too small of a sample size to say for sure. Judging TvZ at the highest level can only be done if you compare FlaSh with Jaedong. The last televised game between them as far as I know is the following: + Show Spoiler + The player records against each other are shown at 2:50. Counting this game, the total score over their careers is 21 wins for FlaSh (53.8% win rate) and 18 wins for JD (46.2% win rate). If Terran and Zerg were evenly balanced, then the win rate should be 50% for both races after many, many games. With the FvJ record as it is, it doesn't make sense to say that T >> Z at the highest level. There can only be a slight imbalance if there is any imbalance at all. In addition, having 49 wins to 49 losses for Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva this month confirms this once more. If you think it's because certain people aren't trying so hard or are just out of form, then keep track of these players in the following months and let's see if the numbers change. Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? Haha, according to classicyellow83, each of them have taken a game off of FlaSh. But yes, I agree that it isn't normal for someone to be so dominant over other players. FlaSh is truly an exceptional athlete, making it to both starleague finals multiple times. None of the 4 Zerg players have anywhere near as many accolades, so I'm not surprised he has the record he does now. And also, he does not offrace and play BGH on his stream all the time. From the streams of his that I have watched, he takes 1v1 against other pros very seriously, concentrating on the game and not getting distracted with his chat channel. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? I would say it's due to the fact that Boxer showed everyone how to play Terran properly at a very early stage in pro-BW history. Zerg players didn't really understand how to play until the mid-2000s when JulyZerg and sAviOr came around. In the late 2000s, JD, FlaSh, Stork, and Bisu pretty much shared the #1 spot. Each of them were always favorites against anyone else, and whenever they did play against each other, they gave us some of the best, most memorable games ever. If there actually are more pro Terran players around, I would hypothesize it's because Terran was the dominant race in the early years and people were inspired to play it themselves. As far as foreign BW is concerned, most of the strongest players, including yourself, are Zerg players. If I remember correctly, Killer was really dominant for a time after KeSPA disbanded. It's a shame he's not playing now that there are so many more players around. EDIT: Also, in the final two OSL's Jangbi defeated FlaSh and FantaSy to win them. So much for Terran imbalance. EDIT 2: Sincerely, Shalashaska_123 | ||
ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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Piste
6158 Posts
On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. Are you serious with your 2/3/4 ling hydra busts? Terran can win with tank vult timing attack on early to midgame on TvP like they can win vs Z with marine and medic busts, if the Z is too greedy. On the other hand, terrans does not have underground lurkers or flying mutaballs. You sound like youd want each race to have similar units and similar playstyles. Queens are used a lot these days. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 19:19 Piste wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. Are you serious with your 2/3/4 ling hydra busts? Terran can win with tank vult timing attack on early to midgame on TvP like they can win vs Z with marine and medic busts, if the Z is too greedy. On the other hand, terrans does not have underground lurkers or flying mutaballs. You sound like youd want each race to have similar units and similar playstyles. Queens are used a lot these days. I am not serious with my 2/3/4hatch hydra/ling busts. It was just an example that zerg's attacking and defending unit arsenal is less diversified than terran's in early to early-mid game. Zerg's legit early to early-midgame attacking arsenal is 3 units - lurkers, mutalisks and zerglings, which is easily and quickly enough scouted. Terran on the other hand can pick from a well-diversified amount of strategies to exploit almost all units it can build from any building and still expect a good amount to win. And I definitely don't want hydralisks to be strenghted because that will be terrible for protoss. And almost surely my imagination can't come up with a unit that "restores balance in ZvT" but is absolutely worthless in ZvP. And, for me, the investment in queens in early/earlymid game in ZvT is not well justified by the expected results. A thought experiment, on a slightly more abstract level that I came up with, is to generalize the attacks any race can do to the other in two types: dynamic and static. The dynamic way of attacking is by using units, the static is by using buildings. Zerg can do damage almost exclusively through the "dynamic" type of attacks in early/earlymid part of the game mainly by using 3 units - zerglings, mutalisks, lurkers. The only "static" way I see for Z to do damage to T is to place a gas station with its scouting drone. Theoretically we can build a hatchery on Terran's expansion to slow him down a bit, but in practice this investment is way too big. On the other hand terran can do sufficient amount of damage to zerg in early/earlymid part of the game through both the dynamic and static way. The dynamic way exploits usage mainly of 8 units- scvs, marines, medics, firebats, vultures, tanks, goliaths, wraiths. I omitted the dropship as I am unsure how to qualify it. The static ways are no less than 2: by placing attacking bunker/s, by placing manner ebays on zerg's exp, rarely building a gas station in zerg's main and even more rarely placing depots on maps like Tau Cross to wall off drone reinforcements vs some marine rushes. Perhaps the SCV repairing the attacking bunker could also be considered a static way of attacking, because I have no idea how to qualify it. I also am not sure how to describe spider mines in the example. Perhaps this type of stuff is of significance to the supposed by my experience imbalance in this MU. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 13:39 9heart wrote: 1+ mutalisk range upgrade from Spire. 150/150 mins/gas (similar to U238 Shells) sunken colony HP increase 50 I think if we try to make zerg stronger vs terran by making zerg units and/or buildings built faster or cheaper or made stronger, this will influence the ZvP imbalance too great to offset the supposed pairment of the ZvT imbalance. On top of my mind, maybe the key is in making the medic and turret more expensive. I remember the turret was being lowered in cost from 150 to 75. 100 will make sense for the turret in that case. However if my memory doesn't serve right and the turret was 100 before it was lowered to 75, then this won't be a viable solution. The possible solutions might be so many I dont even wanna think about it. We have to skim through all the buildings, units and spells and see if their building time, resource spent, health points and damage points (if any) could be altered to achieve some sort of betterment of the supposed imbalances. I don't even want to think about new units. Besides imbalance talk, to awaken the hidden riches of the BW game though, BW developers can think about making the corsair's dweb more viable as an option for p, zerg's broodling and ensare more viable for z and terran's nukes for T (although if currently T is the strongest race, not sure if that will influence this imbalance too much). That would add one more good flavour to the game IMO. | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
I don't think terran has any inherent advantage (current imbalances feel very much because of fighting spirit) versus zerg. I think zerg is just not allowed to make as many mistakes because its playstyle revolves around a small number of key units (11 mutalisks, 3 lurkers, 2 scourges, 1 defiler,...) until it gets to end game. And before all of this, surviving often depends on excellent reading of the terran's opening, and the placement of the minimal amount of sunkens at the latest possible time. Add to this that any early aggression by a zerg player often is a bigger investment with more risk and you get a match up that feels in favor of terran. Just a side-note: but for some reason hydralisks are SO weak against bunkers, a single bunker is often the dead of early hydralisk zergling cheese. It might also be because of repair... | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 11:40 L_Master wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 03:01 Cryoc wrote: On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch. Yes. I take it fairly seriously. Technics is a pretty darn good and well respected player, and to my knowledge isn't know as a particularly whiny player from to complaining. Yes, he plays Z and that likely biases his opinion to an extent, but at the same time T>Z has always been acknowledged to a degree, even more so than Z>P generally has been. I'm not sure how true it holds for foreigner level play though, especially given it only really seems to hold true for excellent, cream of the crop terrans. I suspect there it's much closer to T=Z. Now, I don't think the balance is that bad either, as even at pro level it's generally been not worse than 55/45. That's a decent discrepancy, but not enough that good play struggles to overcome it. Start talking 60-65% WR and I think we'd have a real problem on our hands. Thank you for the acknowledgement, L_Master. FWIW I don't know how well the ZvT imbalance transitions from the korean to the foreigner scene. The foreigner scene nowadays, compared to the one in 2009-2010 or 2013 for instance, for me seems as unalive as ever, measured by number of visibly active players and tournament attendants in the TL events I consider relatively hard to beat. I don't know if we can derive meaningful conclusions but still... Undoubtedly, at least for me, the early/earlymid game imbalance persists (even though almost nobody starts off with 1 base bio nowadays (though it's still a viable open on many maps played throughout the years)) and is strengthened into the mid/late game by the latest mech switch. Back in 2012-2013 I was feeling good about my abilities in all MUs but the fact is that back then the top spots in foreigner TL and Defiler events were occupied by zergs - mainly sziky, trutacz, eon and me. I think though that in 2009-2010 there were many more seemingly hard to beat opponents and the mech switch was not present back then, so I cannot determine what was the case back then. But still... from 2003 until 2010 my biggest concern going into tournaments was to perform well vs Terrans. I don't remember worrying about performing well vs p or vs z (even the rock-paper-scissors). I remember I promised publicly in the PC caffe in 2006, right after I qualified for WCG 2006 Italy, that I will not drop a game vs z or vs p in the WCG games. I respected my promise... by going 1-5 in the groups (0-5 vs terrans). Little did I understand that my biggest problem was not in polished practice skills, but performing as well as in practice under stress in the actual tournaments. Overall, I view the ZvT matchup when we account for decent Z and decent T, from the Z perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from T perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 22:01 B-royal wrote: I'm a new player but I would still like to share my opinion. I don't think terran has any inherent advantage (current imbalances feel very much because of fighting spirit) versus zerg. I think zerg is just not allowed to make as many mistakes because its playstyle revolves around a small number of key units (11 mutalisks, 3 lurkers, 2 scourges, 1 defiler,...) until it gets to end game. And before all of this, surviving often depends on excellent reading of the terran's opening, and the placement of the minimal amount of sunkens at the latest possible time. Add to this that any early aggression by a zerg player often is a bigger investment with more risk and you get a match up that feels in favor of terran. Just a side-note: but for some reason hydralisks are SO weak against bunkers, a single bunker is often the dead of early hydralisk zergling cheese. It might also be because of repair... I mostly agree with all of this. I really can't comprehend why hydralisks are so good vs P and at the same time so bad vs T. | ||
konadora
Singapore66062 Posts
guess not lol | ||
HaN-
France1918 Posts
On October 23 2016 06:31 HaN- wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. FlaSh vs Effort VOD PLEASE! Is it this one? VOD | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 15:16 Shalashaska_123 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 23:51 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 23:04 Tanzklaue wrote: On October 22 2016 22:39 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs. flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? i don't think comments like "they seem to not play seriously really" are of much value. maybe the zergs aren't playing seriously either, who knows? it is right that historically speaking terran is the msot domiannt race, but it also is the race with the msot pro players and zerg historically isn't too far off. if anything, protoss is the race most struggling, as they had the least success in almost every single relevant big league from what i have gathered. what the stats are saying is that flash is way better at tvz than any other terran to the point where no zerg is even close to threatening him in the amtch up currently. we also see that any terran that isn't among the absolute top is struggling somewhat in the match up. so i'd actually argue that the match up is pretty balanced except at the level of basically flawless play, where we see that terran/flash dominates. EDIT: also whenever i turn into flash's stream, he jsut offraces or palys FFA or does random vs random on BGH, so he doesn't paly serious msot of the time either. what does this say about the other terrans then if they can't keep p with flash who is jsut enjoying himself? yeah, the argument "they don't play seriously" might be flawed. But still the most number of dominating players for the longest period of time was Terrans. I didn't know that Terran is the race with most pro players. If true, this simply means that playing terran gives you the best chances to succeed when attempting to become a pro in Korea. That argument alone is pretty much sufficient to describe the terran race, at least marginally, as the best one for high level 1v1 BW. You are also correct to notice that these numbers show, to quote myself once again from this thread, "that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol." Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? In the face of the fact that EffOrt's only win in this sample is described as "The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game.". Hello, LRM)TechnicS. I think the reason Flash is dominating is because there is no active Zerg player at the moment that matches him skill. Effort is kind of holding an even record against him (1 win and 3 losses), but 4 games is too small of a sample size to say for sure. Judging TvZ at the highest level can only be done if you compare FlaSh with Jaedong. The last televised game between them as far as I know is the following: + Show Spoiler + Counting this game, the total score over their careers is 21 wins for FlaSh (53.8% win rate) and 18 wins for JD (46.2% win rate). If Terran and Zerg were evenly balanced, then the win rate should be 50% for both races after many, many games. With the FvJ record as it is, it doesn't make sense to say that T >> Z at the highest level. There can only be a slight imbalance if there is any imbalance at all. In addition, having 49 wins to 49 losses for Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva this month confirms this once more. If you think it's because certain people aren't trying so hard or are just out of form, then keep track of these players in the following months and let's see if the numbers change. Show nested quote + Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? Haha, according to classicyellow83, each of them have taken a game off of FlaSh. But yes, I agree that it isn't normal for someone to be so dominant over other players. FlaSh is truly an exceptional athlete, making it to both starleague finals multiple times. None of the 4 Zerg players have anywhere near as many accolades, so I'm not surprised he has the record he does now. And also, he does not offrace and play BGH on his stream all the time. From the streams of his that I have watched, he takes 1v1 against other pros very seriously, concentrating on the game and not getting distracted with his chat channel. Show nested quote + What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? I would say it's due to the fact that Boxer showed everyone how to play Terran properly at a very early stage in pro-BW history. Zerg players didn't really understand how to play until the mid-2000s when JulyZerg and sAviOr came around. In the late 2000s, JD, FlaSh, Stork, and Bisu pretty much shared the #1 spot. Each of them were always favorites against anyone else, and whenever they did play against each other, they gave us some of the best, most memorable games ever. If there actually are more pro Terran players around, I would hypothesize it's because Terran was the dominant race in the early years and people were inspired to play it themselves. As far as foreign BW is concerned, most of the strongest players, including yourself, are Zerg players. If I remember correctly, Killer was really dominant for a time after KeSPA disbanded. It's a shame he's not playing now that there are so many more players around. EDIT: Also, in the final two OSL's Jangbi defeated FlaSh and FantaSy to win them. So much for Terran imbalance. EDIT 2: Sincerely, Shalashaska_123 All these comments of mine presented in this thread are not instigated by this thread alone. I have these thoughts for some weeks/months now after BW HD was rumoured to come out. I view BW:HD as an opportunity to awaken the riches of BW and to bring along many new players, audiences, donators and oldfaces returning in order to make an actual BW revival. It is not hard to imagine a lively BW foreigner scene. I am most probably instantly donating for tournaments a substantial amount if I see that happening. All Blizzard needs to do is to invest time, resources and efforts into this. Judging from the past - Blizzard either puts all the work possible into a project, or they completely don't. I would have laid out all these thoughts of mine earlier this month, independently from this thread, but I decided to wait for further proofs that Blizzard actually wants to put a good amount of work and effort into the supposed BW:HD project. Nevertheless, this thread presented opportunity for me to unload all these thoughts of mine and visibly I did not miss this opportunity, however inappropriate to some that might have seemed. Nowadays we mostly have old korean pros returning and streaming, with a scene not as strictly professional as before and I certainly do not view the numbers presented as concluding for the ZvT imbalance as much. The only conclusion I made is that FlaSh can do the 14-0 challenge vs the current top 4 zergs for real and expect to win a good amount of the time. And that most probably Sea is performing very bad vs Zergs currently as he seemingly does not want to copy FlaSh's style of ZvT. Really, it's a shame that Killer isn't active anymore as he was a top performer in the Sonic leagues, while the last Afreeca leagues had seemingly mostly poor overall zerg performances. It would be interesting to see him perform on top of his shape vs FlaSh. I am not sure how to fully quantify and describe the supposed by my experience ZvT imbalance. These are all thoughts of mine on the matter that seemingly to me describe well the reality. Perhaps it's a combination of tiny influences from a vast range of factors that adds up to the feeling that ZvT is imbalanced. The numbers leave me with the feeling that FlaSh is still maintaining his top shape, while others maybe have deteriorated. Nevertheless, the unsaid feeling of the ZvT imbalance, have been around for years before FlaSh started playing, at least in my eyes. And yes, saviOr and July really had their valueable contributions to the zerg race. For example I view the muta stack discovery as a turning point in ZvT gameplay. But how do we even describe the Mutastack as an example of airstacking units? I mean is it physically realistical to even imagine, let alone place air units stacked in the air to shoot air and ground targets at the same time with the same success from the same angle every time? It's not a normal thing for sure so the question is: is it some sort of BW "bug" that was decided to be unfixed to have the air units stack when selected with a unit far from the mutas? If it weren't for the Muta stack, what would Zerg do nowadays vs Terran on FS for example? Let me tell you, nowadays mutastack ZvT is absolutely crucial. If it weren't for that, TvZ would be a astonishingly more in favour of Terran vs Zerg. If a patch fixed that "bug" perhaps disbanding zerg pros from prohouses and 2base ultra rushes become actual possibilities. Or BW Mapmaking must become much more dilligent and sophisticated. Although BW mapmaking and maybe even pathing is a whole different but very important subject that nobody seemingly thinks too deeply about for now. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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zaMNal
Mongolia384 Posts
SCV hp of 60 was one of the bigger baffles for me personally for the longest time. It takes whole 7 mutalisks to 1-shot an scv but probe and drone need just 5 mutalisks. This difference is huge, pretty unfair. Some say it's because SCV doesn't have regeneration like probes or drones. BUT it has direct manual healing(repair) available at any time, which is at least as good as regen, and is especially superb when doing bunker/scv rushes. Bringing scv to 40 hp would make it very fair, especially as it can be repaired to 100% in few seconds. Or 45 hp max (still 5 mutalisk to 1-shot it). 60 is just waay over the top as long as they can be repaired. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
But what do you mean, "no one thinks too deeply about map making and pathing" O_o ? A bit more more recognition for my accumulated sanity losses, please! | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 24 2016 00:01 Freakling wrote: Well, bots have not evolved beyond artificial stupid yet. They are nowhere near where they could actually comprehend meaning... But what do you mean, "no one thinks too deeply about map making and pathing" O_o ? A bit more more recognition for my accumulated sanity losses, please! I meant that in relation to the supposed ZvT imbalance, seemingly to me, most probably in Korea BW players and audiences are not yet visibly concerned with map and pathing issues as sources for some of the BW imbalances. Yes, they might think FS might be imbalanced in favour of T so they started playing Circuit Breakers but that might be even more T>Z. Even though I don't understand Korean and I can't read their forums and thoughts on the matter, if indeed that was of any concern to Koreans, they would put efforts and new maps would have emerged. However that is not the case. Or maybe the next Afreeca league has just this in store - new league with new maps. One of the last maps created for competitive play for the Sonic leagues I remember was heavily imbalanced - Wind and Cloud. Perhaps the mapmaking community there places more efforts on creating UMS maps. My assumption is that "the player base" in Korea do not even suspect the great benefits that can be derived from a vibrant interaction between the player and mapmaking communities. I imagine that in Korea if the map is made by Rose.of.Dream and it looks symmetrical, everyone instantly believes it's balanced and it's great while in reality there's a good chance it's not. A proof of that is how Wind and Cloud had significantly different mining rates for zerg in main bases. If a Zerg spawned top left and played vs another zerg on bottom right, he has to have bo advantage to be even with his opponent. Maybe he was negligent in just this map, but maybe not. So if the most prominent korean mapmaker Rose.of.Dream hasn't put the efforts to find out how to position mineral patches in the main base to not have visible imbalances, what should we expect about the supposed more sophisticated stuff? The case is different abroad though as we have Freaklingzerg who's deeply knowledged, willing to learn more, creative and actually puts a lot of work into his maps. After placing a lot of efforts together I came to understand that placing mineral patches correctly in the main base is not an easy task to do. Simple, though important stuff as these, might additionally influence already existing slight imbalances between races. | ||
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