Defensive warpins with incomplete nexus - Page 3
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:18 CheddarToss wrote: I find it funny that people are arguing over this. If I could, I would force every poster here to play Protoss in a version of the game, in which there are no fast warpins at Nexi under construction. Maybe after a several dozen easily crushed expos and devastating losses it might get obvious why this warpin behaviour makes perfect sense. Or you could have your army closer to protect it or use the pylon cannon to defend your expo while you warp in or bring back some units. I doubt it´s as dramatic as you make it sound like. | ||
InfCereal
Canada1751 Posts
I think in a perfect world, protoss would have an existing army to defend an expansion, and would supplement that with overcharge to defend. In an even more perfect world they'd be able to defend using their army like anyone else, no overcharge, no panic warpins. Just my 2 cents. Protoss deems to have a lot of special rules, and I'm not a huge fan. I'd rather they be more traditional. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:31 InfCereal wrote: I'd be more okay with incomplete nexus providing the warpin buff if photon overcharge wasn't so strong. Protoss has a lot of defenders advantage already, so this just compounds that. On the other hand, it makes sense for an incomplete nexus to provide the warpin buff. I think in a perfect world, protoss would have an existing army to defend an expansion, and would supplement that with overcharge to defend. In an even more perfect world they'd be able to defend using their army like anyone else, no overcharge, no panic warpins. Just my 2 cents. Protoss deems to have a lot of special rules, and I'm not a huge fan. I'd rather they be more traditional. That's what you get when you balance the first 5 years of the game around having weaker core units than the other races and mechanics that remove defenders advantage | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:16 Cyro wrote: That's what you get when you balance the first 5 years of the game around having weaker core units than the other races and mechanics that remove defenders advantage Yeah, and now you get a stronger core unit, so why do you leave that out of the equation? | ||
RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:28 Big J wrote: Yeah, and now you get a stronger core unit, so why do you leave that out of the equation? I thought stalker/sentry has proved that protoss has super strong core units? | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:40 RaFox17 wrote: I thought stalker/sentry has proved that protoss has super strong core units? Of course it has, but you could argue that's only in PvZ and you still have to rely somewhat heavily on the MsC to take the 2nd and 3rd expansion. (though so far they have managed without overcharge being there before the nexus was done; yet with fast warpins, though not with 2sec but 5sec, or whatever value that is in real time...) | ||
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On October 02 2015 12:10 parkufarku wrote: TimeSpiral, why am I not surprised you're in one of these threads and advocating against anything that gives a non-Terran race a benefit? Is it so hard to believe that an intended behavior exists? For example, a DT back in BW could 1 hit a drone or probe and it would not have the alert sound 'your units are under attack.' Everyone assumed it was intended behavior. Wait..I'm just gonna stop arguing with you. It's pointless But you don't argue with me. You just pop up every once in a while to slander me personally, lol. Get over it. It doesn't appear like intended behavior to me (and others). But it might be. I am not presuming to know, because I didn't write the fucking code. So, because this is a beta, the issue is being raised and discussed. What could your problem with this possibly be? I don't even ... I just ... | ||
TorkkSC
29 Posts
Try this test: Build a pylon and then a gate way. While the gateway is building, select the pylon. It should display a normal (slow) warp-in field. Once the Gateway is finished, order the transformation into Warpgate. As quickly as possible (maybe set up a hotkey), switch back to the pylon. Does the pylon's powerfield change to fast warp-in while the Gateway is transforming, or does it switch over once the Warpgate is complete? I'd be interested to see what happens here. I've tested this by accident by warping in units before I transformed a gateway into a warpgate. It won't speed up the warp in until the warpgate transformation is 100% complete. | ||
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On October 03 2015 01:53 TorkkSC wrote: I've tested this by accident by warping in units before I transformed a gateway into a warpgate. It won't speed up the warp in until the warpgate transformation is 100% complete. Thanks for reporting back on this! I suspected that this would be the case. This appears to demonstrate a logic inconsistency that cuts both ways. Unless of course, the Nexus that is warping in is a unique exception. Another test: can you recall to a nexus that is warping in? Another test: can you photon overcharge on a pylon that is warping in? | ||
Alves
United States9 Posts
On September 30 2015 21:23 Genesis128 wrote: I don't think the "have 400 extra minerals" in any way invalidates this as an offensive strategy. As DinoMight put it, if you want to do warp-ins you have to prepare accordingly and have the minerals saved up. Say you have 7 warpgates and 700 minerals. What you can do as opposed to 16 second slow warp-ins, is start nexus (300 minerals left), warp in 3 fast zealots (0 minerals), cancel nexus (300 minerals) and warp in another 3 zealots. You then have 3 zealots after 2 seconds, and 6 zealots after 18 seconds. In fact: if you have a fully saturated base (800 minerals/minute), you can already start using your last warpgate at the 8 second mark since you have earned the 100 minerals needed for your last zealot. I.e. you are going to have 2 sec: 3 zealots 18 sec: 6 zealots 24 sec: 7 zealots as opposed to 16 sec: 7 zealots The above calculation was coined at those concerned that this trick was not useful for timing attacks. It is indeed useful for timings, but I think its biggest utility is late-game where you actually often *do* have an extra 400 lying around. At least players like myself who is not grand master yet. In those cases, it can be used in a reactionary way when you need really quick reinforcements and get 300 out of 400 minerals refunded anyway. why not just make a robo and a warp prism with additional 100 gas then you can make units anywhere and have blink ability on zealot/stalker/adept/immortal, warp research takes longer time then a robo + warp prism | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
I've tested this by accident by warping in units before I transformed a gateway into a warpgate. It won't speed up the warp in until the warpgate transformation is 100% complete. Thanks for reporting back on this! I suspected that this would be the case I've personally used this in dozens of games and the sped up warp actually starts the moment you start transforming the gateway to a warpgate, not when the transformation finishes after like 7 seconds. | ||
weikor
Austria580 Posts
Then you cancel your nexus and expand. Its the only build i can think of that "might" have 400 minerals to spare and use it. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20246 Posts
On October 03 2015 18:00 weikor wrote: i can see the best (maybe only) offensive use of this beeing something where you use the nexus to warp in DTs very close to your opponent. Then you cancel your nexus and expand. Its the only build i can think of that "might" have 400 minerals to spare and use it. I think the most common use would be later in the game, when you have 12 gateways anyway and a temporary expenditure of 400 minerals (to be recovered to only 100 spent) is nothing against the ability to reinforce 2 waves of units in your opponents face after a fight. That's a time where waiting for a pylon and then a gateway to finish while meanwhile warping at home and doing 16 second warp-ins actually makes it a lot harder to attack - a warp prism can bypass all of this, but you may not have one. I think overall that i'd rather not have lol offensive nexus be the best way to play in some situations - it's the best way to play in some situations at the moment, but it hasn't become routine enough to see lots of abuse. | ||
TorkkSC
29 Posts
Another test: can you recall to a nexus that is warping in? Another test: can you photon overcharge on a pylon that is warping in? Nope and nope! | ||
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