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On March 28 2015 06:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: 1) Remote control is not the same thing as an automated landing system. One has total human control, the other does not. It's a big distinction.
2) Autoland is basically only ever used for low vis conditions in low wind conditions with much of the landing work already done. Autoland basically involves the pilot doing the vast majority of the decision making in landing before switching on that button. You basically have no idea what you are talking about and probably quoted crap off wikipedia or whatever. Again, military UAV's land themselves. Automatic landing does not necessarily require pilot control. If it did, how can these drones, which have no pilots, pull it off?
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On March 28 2015 08:58 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 06:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: 1) Remote control is not the same thing as an automated landing system. One has total human control, the other does not. It's a big distinction.
2) Autoland is basically only ever used for low vis conditions in low wind conditions with much of the landing work already done. Autoland basically involves the pilot doing the vast majority of the decision making in landing before switching on that button. You basically have no idea what you are talking about and probably quoted crap off wikipedia or whatever. Again, military UAV's land themselves. Automatic landing does not necessarily require pilot control. If it did, how can these drones, which have no pilots, pull it off?
He literally just told you how it is done. It is used in low wind conditions after the remote pilot (aka the human) does most of the landing work. Drones are also small and unmaned so it doesn't matter if they make a very hard landing. That is not an option for an airliner.
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On March 28 2015 09:09 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 08:58 Millitron wrote:On March 28 2015 06:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: 1) Remote control is not the same thing as an automated landing system. One has total human control, the other does not. It's a big distinction.
2) Autoland is basically only ever used for low vis conditions in low wind conditions with much of the landing work already done. Autoland basically involves the pilot doing the vast majority of the decision making in landing before switching on that button. You basically have no idea what you are talking about and probably quoted crap off wikipedia or whatever. Again, military UAV's land themselves. Automatic landing does not necessarily require pilot control. If it did, how can these drones, which have no pilots, pull it off? He literally just told you how it is done. It is used in low wind conditions after the remote pilot (aka the human) does most of the landing work. Drones are also small and unmaned so it doesn't matter if they make a very hard landing. That is not an option for an airliner. He's not talking about drones. Or at least I really doubt he is because he keeps bringing up remote control. Drones are automated. You tell it it's route, and it does it. It's not like an RC car with missiles.
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Military UAVs often called drones have human pilots. They are all stationed in Arizona iirc. They don't fly themselves.
Personal hobbist Quadcopters types also often labeled drones fly very much like in the rc manner. Most decent ones have the ability to land themselves and some can handle hands off flights thru automated preplanned flight.
Edit also UAVs are not small at all. Although per typical palne standards yeah. I mean they carry missle n shit. They gotta be at least bigger than the missle that they carry.
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On March 28 2015 09:44 NIJ wrote: Military UAVs often called drones have human pilots. They are all stationed in Arizona iirc. They don't fly themselves.
Personal hobbist Quadcopters types also often labeled drones fly very much like in the rc manner. Most decent ones have the ability to land themselves and some can handle hands off flights thru automated preplanned flight.
Edit also UAVs are not small at all. Although per typical palne standards yeah. I mean they carry missle n shit. They gotta be at least bigger than the missle that they carry. The pilots in arizona also don't just sit at a computer screen and fly them like a videogame. They program those routes, and do mission-critical stuff, like drop bombs. They absolutely do not do the minutiae of flying. They are much more automated than RC cars.
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On March 28 2015 09:59 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 09:44 NIJ wrote: Military UAVs often called drones have human pilots. They are all stationed in Arizona iirc. They don't fly themselves.
Personal hobbist Quadcopters types also often labeled drones fly very much like in the rc manner. Most decent ones have the ability to land themselves and some can handle hands off flights thru automated preplanned flight.
Edit also UAVs are not small at all. Although per typical palne standards yeah. I mean they carry missle n shit. They gotta be at least bigger than the missle that they carry. The pilots in arizona also don't just sit at a computer screen and fly them like a videogame. They program those routes, and do mission-critical stuff, like drop bombs. They absolutely do not do the minutiae of flying. They are much more automated than RC cars. Actually they do. Talk to one of them and they'll tell you it feels exactly like playing a video game. Or rather playing a video game while looking thru a straw... (tunnel vision)
What you are talking about is something that's being explored but not within the reality of current technology right now. I may even dare to stretch it to that prototypes for those exists if I'm behind the times (been out of military for sometime) but such thing isny mainstream at all.
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Well "playing a videogame" might not be an accurate discription of actual action to control a drone.
Can be like SC, you give shift-click waypoints, AI sorts it out. Or like Flight-Simulator where you do all the joystick inputs yourself.
I guess, like real flying, it's a combination of both. Planes like F16, F18, EUROFIGHTER or B2 won't even be flying if not for the computers constantly holding them in the air by minimal steering inputs to prevent their unstable design from going berzerk.
Modern planes are not really controlled manually most of the time, it's more economic and safer to let a computer handle situations in wich there is no need for fast reaction. Once of the runway with enough ground clearence, set the autopilot to a ascent of XXX Foot per minute at XXX knots turn the heading knob on course and let it sort out the controll inputs to the plane. Of course you got to watch it in case of malfunction and be ready to shut down the computer to take over manually.
I think the concept of "4 eyes" has it's drawbacks, saying "There was no case like this in the US, so 4 eyes is 100% the way to go" is stupid. There was no case of a cabin-crew member (lower qualification and lower backround check) was a terrorist and took over the plane while sub in for the pilot either.
Airlines will switch to this system not because it is safer, but it would have a chance to prevent the exact desaster that has occured and frightens customers away.
Nothing can prevent a Pilot from crashing a plane. Even if you got 2 people in the cockpit, and you are in landing approach, suddenly pilot in control just goes full nose down into the ground.
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The pilot quoted on the last page gave you the real reason a forced autopilot landing would not help, even if it were feasable.
On March 28 2015 07:22 lord_nibbler wrote: Also, why the long decent and the locking of the door in the first place? For what? It takes me ten seconds in the cockpit to force the plane into a guaranteed crash. No matter what the captain would try after, he would not be able to save it. This would not be a gentle descent then of course, but a fast dive down."
If it had been possible to remotely override a slow descent, the guy would not have used a slow descent.
Once again, a wilfully malicious pilot will always be able to crash a plane. Whatever safety systems you put in place, the pilots will know them intimately and will be ideally placed to defeat them, should they choose to do so.
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So different sources are saying different things.
Some sources are saying he suffered from depression, while others are claiming that he was treated with IV antipsychotic medications.
Psychosis and depression, although can occur together, are two different things.
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On March 28 2015 19:18 plgElwood wrote:Well "playing a videogame" might not be an accurate discription of actual action to control a drone. Can be like SC, you give shift-click waypoints, AI sorts it out. Or like Flight-Simulator where you do all the joystick inputs yourself. I guess, like real flying, it's a combination of both. Planes like F16, F18, EUROFIGHTER or B2 won't even be flying if not for the computers constantly holding them in the air by minimal steering inputs to prevent their unstable design from going berzerk. + Show Spoiler + Modern planes are not really controlled manually most of the time, it's more economic and safer to let a computer handle situations in wich there is no need for fast reaction. Once of the runway with enough ground clearence, set the autopilot to a ascent of XXX Foot per minute at XXX knots turn the heading knob on course and let it sort out the controll inputs to the plane. Of course you got to watch it in case of malfunction and be ready to shut down the computer to take over manually.
I think the concept of "4 eyes" has it's drawbacks, saying "There was no case like this in the US, so 4 eyes is 100% the way to go" is stupid. There was no case of a cabin-crew member (lower qualification and lower backround check) was a terrorist and took over the plane while sub in for the pilot either.
Airlines will switch to this system not because it is safer, but it would have a chance to prevent the exact desaster that has occured and frightens customers away.
Nothing can prevent a Pilot from crashing a plane. Even if you got 2 people in the cockpit, and you are in landing approach, suddenly pilot in control just goes full nose down into the ground.
Check out Prepar3d by Lockheed Martin, it is an extremely well done Fight Simulator after MS/FS sold out. I used to have a neighbor friend who loves planes and flying and would come over all the time and use it.
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On March 30 2015 10:58 QuantumTeleportation wrote: So different sources are saying different things.
Some sources are saying he suffered from depression, while others are claiming that he was treated with IV antipsychotic medications.
Psychosis and depression, although can occur together, are two different things.
Far as I know the story is that he had a depressive episode two years ago during training, was treated and was handling it fine. But recently he's been seeing the doctors for SOME OTHER mental health issue, one that cause them to sign him off as being unable to fly. And he didn't report that to the company, instead he hid it.
But they (the investigators) haven't specified what this other issue is to the media yet; speculation being that it was some form of psychosis. Of course that doesn't prevent the hysterical headlines about depression.
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On March 30 2015 21:59 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2015 10:58 QuantumTeleportation wrote: So different sources are saying different things.
Some sources are saying he suffered from depression, while others are claiming that he was treated with IV antipsychotic medications.
Psychosis and depression, although can occur together, are two different things. Far as I know the story is that he had a depressive episode two years ago during training, was treated and was handling it fine. But recently he's been seeing the doctors for SOME OTHER mental health issue, one that cause them to sign him off as being unable to fly. And he didn't report that to the company, instead he hid it. But they (the investigators) haven't specified what this other issue is to the media yet; speculation being that it was some form of psychosis. Of course that doesn't prevent the hysterical headlines about depression.
The latest media reports say that he was under medical treatment for suicidal thoughts. http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-been-in-treatment-for-suicide-risk-1427726274
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Lufthansa knew of co-pilot’s previous ‘severe depression’ in 2009
BERLIN — The co-pilot who crashed Flight 9525 into a French mountainside last week had informed the German carrier Lufthansa in 2009 about a “previous episode of severe depression,” the airline said on Tuesday, raising fresh questions about the series of decisions that allowed Andreas Lubitz to stay in the skies.
The admission that the company knew at least some of the history of Lubitz’s mental illness came after the company’s chief executive Carsten Spohr said publicly last week that Lufthansa — parent of the budget airline Germanwings for which Lubitz worked — had no previous knowledge of his medical history.
In a statement on Tuesday, however, the carrier said it wanted to issue a “swift and seamless clarification.” In 2009, Lubitz had taken several months off during his training to become a pilot. When he resumed the program, Lufthansa said, he provided them “medical documents” that noted his bout of severe depression.
Under European aviation law, pilots with active and untreated cases of depression are prevented from flying. But if deemed medically cured, there may have been no legal impediment for Lubitz to continue his training and obtaining his license, experts say.
However, pilots who have attempted “a single self-destructive act” – such as suicide –are legally barred from commercial flying. Also, pilots who are taking psychotropic medications -- such as popular anti-depressants -- as part of their therapy, for instance, have some limitations, including a stipulation that they not be alone in the cockpit.
German prosecutors said Monday that Lubitz had suffered from “suicidal tendencies” for which he was treated over an extended period. The prosecutors said the treatment occurred before he was issued a pilot’s license, and that they had found no indications that he was recently suicidal.
But Germany authorities have said that he had been issued multiple doctors’ notes judging him unfit to work, including one covering the day of the plane crash. At least one of the notes was found torn up in his apartment. The system depends on employees reporting their own medical conditions to their employers, and Lufthansa has said that it was not aware of the recent medical problems.
Source
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Ok this I do not want to see or watch, if it ever gets released.
Paris Match & Bild both say they have seen mobile phone video of the crash as it happens from inside the plane.
http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774
Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing.
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On April 02 2015 02:32 RCMDVA wrote:Ok this I do not want to see or watch, if it ever gets released. Paris Match & Bild both say they have seen mobile phone video of the crash as it happens from inside the plane. http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774Show nested quote +Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing.
Donʻt think I could watch that either... This tragedy is bad enough, but now as I watch the media coverage I fear how depression may be stigmatized now. Anyone who knows anything about depression should realize that it doesnʻt turn a person homicidal. Itʻs striking how one can report true facts, but in such a way (emphasizing and arranging) that it presents a totally unreasonable conclusion as true. Of course this is the bread and butter of advertisers, but journalism should hold itself to a higher moral standard. They do this with almost every big piece of news.
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On April 02 2015 03:26 Glowsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 02:32 RCMDVA wrote:Ok this I do not want to see or watch, if it ever gets released. Paris Match & Bild both say they have seen mobile phone video of the crash as it happens from inside the plane. http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing. Donʻt think I could watch that either... This tragedy is bad enough, but now as I watch the media coverage I fear how depression may be stigmatized now. Anyone who knows anything about depression should realize that it doesnʻt turn a person homicidal. Itʻs striking how one can report true facts, but in such a way (emphasizing and arranging) that it presents a totally unreasonable conclusion as true. Of course this is the bread and butter of advertisers, but journalism should hold itself to a higher moral standard. They do this with almost every big piece of news.
Well I think it's less about depression and more about suicidal thoughts/actions that are the issue. I don't think there is anything politically incorrect about saying "I don't want someone who has seriously thought about or tried to kill themselves at the helm of my plane, train, bus, etc..." At least not until several years have elapsed since the suicidal issues. I think it's also fair to expect companies in such industries to monitor their employees, so that they are aware of issues when they arise.
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On April 02 2015 05:29 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 03:26 Glowsphere wrote:On April 02 2015 02:32 RCMDVA wrote:Ok this I do not want to see or watch, if it ever gets released. Paris Match & Bild both say they have seen mobile phone video of the crash as it happens from inside the plane. http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing. Donʻt think I could watch that either... This tragedy is bad enough, but now as I watch the media coverage I fear how depression may be stigmatized now. Anyone who knows anything about depression should realize that it doesnʻt turn a person homicidal. Itʻs striking how one can report true facts, but in such a way (emphasizing and arranging) that it presents a totally unreasonable conclusion as true. Of course this is the bread and butter of advertisers, but journalism should hold itself to a higher moral standard. They do this with almost every big piece of news. Well I think it's less about depression and more about suicidal thoughts/actions that are the issue. I don't think there is anything politically incorrect about saying "I don't want someone who has seriously thought about or tried to kill themselves at the helm of my plane, train, bus, etc..." At least not until several years have elapsed since the suicidal issues. I think it's also fair to expect companies in such industries to monitor their employees, so that they are aware of issues when they arise.
People under duress make bad choices or allow one facet of their life to override their conscience or logic. Depressed and or suicidal people carry a lot of duress and make bad choices. Too bad collectivisms so often ignore the causes of duress until it blows up in their face then blame only what is convenient.
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On April 02 2015 05:48 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 05:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 02 2015 03:26 Glowsphere wrote:On April 02 2015 02:32 RCMDVA wrote:Ok this I do not want to see or watch, if it ever gets released. Paris Match & Bild both say they have seen mobile phone video of the crash as it happens from inside the plane. http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing. Donʻt think I could watch that either... This tragedy is bad enough, but now as I watch the media coverage I fear how depression may be stigmatized now. Anyone who knows anything about depression should realize that it doesnʻt turn a person homicidal. Itʻs striking how one can report true facts, but in such a way (emphasizing and arranging) that it presents a totally unreasonable conclusion as true. Of course this is the bread and butter of advertisers, but journalism should hold itself to a higher moral standard. They do this with almost every big piece of news. Well I think it's less about depression and more about suicidal thoughts/actions that are the issue. I don't think there is anything politically incorrect about saying "I don't want someone who has seriously thought about or tried to kill themselves at the helm of my plane, train, bus, etc..." At least not until several years have elapsed since the suicidal issues. I think it's also fair to expect companies in such industries to monitor their employees, so that they are aware of issues when they arise. People under duress make bad choices or allow one facet of their life to override their conscience or logic. Depressed and or suicidal people carry a lot of duress and make bad choices. Too bad collectivisms so often ignore the causes of duress until it blows up in their face then blame only what is convenient.
Not exactly sure what you mean, but I think mental healthcare is woefully inadequate in the US, don't really have a clue about Germany for average folks.
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On April 02 2015 05:29 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 03:26 Glowsphere wrote:On April 02 2015 02:32 RCMDVA wrote:Ok this I do not want to see or watch, if it ever gets released. Paris Match & Bild both say they have seen mobile phone video of the crash as it happens from inside the plane. http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing. Donʻt think I could watch that either... This tragedy is bad enough, but now as I watch the media coverage I fear how depression may be stigmatized now. Anyone who knows anything about depression should realize that it doesnʻt turn a person homicidal. Itʻs striking how one can report true facts, but in such a way (emphasizing and arranging) that it presents a totally unreasonable conclusion as true. Of course this is the bread and butter of advertisers, but journalism should hold itself to a higher moral standard. They do this with almost every big piece of news. Well I think it's less about depression and more about suicidal thoughts/actions that are the issue. I don't think there is anything politically incorrect about saying "I don't want someone who has seriously thought about or tried to kill themselves at the helm of my plane, train, bus, etc..." At least not until several years have elapsed since the suicidal issues. I think it's also fair to expect companies in such industries to monitor their employees, so that they are aware of issues when they arise.
Are we to bar people who have "seriously thought about trying to kill themselves" from certain jobs then? I suppose that in addition to not operating vehicles, they should also be kept from things like food service as well, where they might snap and put poison into someone's food? I think the line between suicide and homicide is being erased here, or it is being taken for granted that a suicidal person is necessarily more inclined to kill others.
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On April 02 2015 08:16 Glowsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 05:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 02 2015 03:26 Glowsphere wrote:On April 02 2015 02:32 RCMDVA wrote:Ok this I do not want to see or watch, if it ever gets released. Paris Match & Bild both say they have seen mobile phone video of the crash as it happens from inside the plane. http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing. Donʻt think I could watch that either... This tragedy is bad enough, but now as I watch the media coverage I fear how depression may be stigmatized now. Anyone who knows anything about depression should realize that it doesnʻt turn a person homicidal. Itʻs striking how one can report true facts, but in such a way (emphasizing and arranging) that it presents a totally unreasonable conclusion as true. Of course this is the bread and butter of advertisers, but journalism should hold itself to a higher moral standard. They do this with almost every big piece of news. Well I think it's less about depression and more about suicidal thoughts/actions that are the issue. I don't think there is anything politically incorrect about saying "I don't want someone who has seriously thought about or tried to kill themselves at the helm of my plane, train, bus, etc..." At least not until several years have elapsed since the suicidal issues. I think it's also fair to expect companies in such industries to monitor their employees, so that they are aware of issues when they arise. Are we to bar people who have "seriously thought about trying to kill themselves" from certain jobs then? I suppose that in addition to not operating vehicles, they should also be kept from things like food service as well, where they might snap and put poison into someone's food? I think the line between suicide and homicide is being erased here, or it is being taken for granted that a suicidal person is necessarily more inclined to kill others.
They should not be in a position where their own death would correlate to the death of others. So no I would not have suicidal people being pilots or train conductors or even taxi drivers. Do you want your kid riding in an airplane with a suicidal pilot? It's easy to be PC and righteous but the safety of innocents in society trumps squishy feelings.
The food poisoning example is ridiculous. The person there isn't trying to kill himself and only trying to hurt others. That's homicide. Complete red herring.
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