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One of the more subtle realities of starcraft is that units with a projectile animation are more suspectible to overkill damage and generally retarded behavior that tends to fuck them over.
The vast majority of ranged units in SC have instantaneous or near instantaneous projectiles, but fast moving projectiles are really hard to see in 3D, so now everything gets lasers instead. This should probably make micro a lot smoother and prevent "oh nice all 24 of my goons just shot a single spider mine" sorts of mishaps, and I really don't see how the complaints of "I can't tell what's going on" are justified, just follow the lines - is it really that much easier to see what's going on in a massive tank/goon battle? Stuff's just exploding all over the place.
I also suspect that they're team colored, but it's hard to tell because terran has always been red team and protoss has always been blue team.
Just a passing thought.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
NO DON'T CROSS THE BEAMS!!!
AARRGHHHHHHH
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People have to micro it so units don't overkill something.
Dragoons vs mines and Goliaths vs mines are different situation with different advantages for each units. Goliaths does it better with their faster attack.
The major complaint isn't about the look, but how laser attack works. In SC2, way too many units have continuous attacks.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On June 19 2007 11:45 [X]Ken~D wrote: People have to micro it so units don't overkill something.
Dragoons vs mines and Goliaths vs mines are different situation with different advantages for each units. Goliaths does it better with their faster attack.
In SC2, way too many units have continuous attacks. You are aware that continuous attacks require other types of decisions and micro right? Hence complicating the game in other ways?
Continuous attacks, especially with the warp-ray creates the distinct possibility that you "underkill" things with bad choices and ways of engaging someone.
And btw, 2 units = way too many? T_T
edit: 3 soulhunter as well as pointed out to me
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United States12201 Posts
On June 19 2007 11:46 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 11:45 [X]Ken~D wrote: People have to micro it so units don't overkill something.
Dragoons vs mines and Goliaths vs mines are different situation with different advantages for each units. Goliaths does it better with their faster attack.
In SC2, way too many units have continuous attacks. You are aware that continuous attacks require other types of decisions and micro right? Hence complicating the game in other ways? Continuous attacks, especially with the warp-ray creates the distinct possibility that you "underkill" things with bad choices and ways of engaging someone. And btw, 2 units = way too many? T_T
Warp Ray, Colossus, Soul Hunter. That's three so far.
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It's not like Protoss have 100 other units
On June 19 2007 11:46 Nyovne wrote: You are aware that continuous attacks require other types of decisions and micro right? Hence complicating the game in other ways?
and they would be?
Nyovne, most of your post relating to SC2 makes it sound like the game is ready to ship to the stores now.
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i think that only toss will have continuous attack but i rather a normal range attack like a goon.
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On June 19 2007 11:53 [X]Ken~D wrote:It's not like Protoss have 100 other units Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 11:46 Nyovne wrote: You are aware that continuous attacks require other types of decisions and micro right? Hence complicating the game in other ways?
and they would be? warp ray damage increases the longer it fires, so it is most effective when their fire is spread out among different units, preferably the highest hp ones around
collosus does splash damage, and also seems to take some time to adjust its target, so you want it to fire in an arc that can hit as many units as possible. you wouldn't want it to fire on a lone lurker, you'd want it to sweep across your zealot line
did you even watch the gameplay video?
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On June 19 2007 11:53 [X]Ken~D wrote:It's not like Protoss have 100 other units Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 11:46 Nyovne wrote: You are aware that continuous attacks require other types of decisions and micro right? Hence complicating the game in other ways?
and they would be? Nyovne, most of your post relating to SC2 makes it sound like the game is ready to ship to the stores now. Let me summarize yours:
"unfunded QQ"
For other things I refer to the post above this one who very well stated the points.
Along with the fact that you do NOT want to move your colossus in itself is a decision and a control point in itself. You can't even micro it even if you wanted to cause of the time it takes for the damage to set it. If you make a bad choice your only choice is to run, which again is a dire option if its the one left to you.
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This is actually a very smart analysis. There is something else the Protoss are going to gain with the energy/laser type beams. (Take note this isn\'t intended to be a straight P v T whine, but after finishing writing this it\'s starting to sound as such. P v T is pretty close balance-wise... it\'s just balanced differently than I think the original intentions were.)
In SC1 there is a large delay/startup time for a goon attack... so bad that people can use tanks+dropships like the old timey reaver drops to avoid goon attacks entirely. The goon delay and it\'s low dmg output vs small units still worked well enough overall, but it was a large source of aggravation at sometimes critical moments of the game. The pathing of goons just made this even more apparent. And like Zanno says, it was a very good way for goons to waste shots in a worse way than any other unit in the game because there is a huge delay between attack animation beginning and hit.
Also, goons, for their cost, were pretty bad at killing workers. In the worst scenario, why do SCVs kick goon butt so much? OK, SCVs kick butt against a lot of units... but I\'ve seen games where a \"ton\" of goons were taken down by nothing but SCVs, and this shouldnt really be the case. Slow attacks is one of the big reasons for this (yeah, along with low dmg to small units, etc). But compare this to a similarly priced group of hydra vs workers. Or marines vs workers. Or tanks vs workers. Or goliaths, or... you see the pattern? Luckily protoss has psi storm and reavers to often make up for this lack of worker killing potential. I actually like the fact that you need something other than plain old fighters to be more effective, so don\'t get me wrong. But it does make it more complicated for Protoss.
Think of it this way in this slightly biased, NOT 100% accurate account of tanks vs goons vs vultures (situation dictates how this would turn out way more than basic numbers vs numbers): PvT: 6 goons approach 5 sieged tanks. A few goons died immediately, and the others either got one shot off or ran away hurt.
Versus
7 vultures run up to 5 goons. the vultures get a volley of shots off and take down the shields of 2 or 3 goons as they are laying mines. 2 vultures die, mines are laid, and 3 goons die from mine blasts. Other vultures (hurt but alive) run past goons and go kill some probes while laying mines in their path. Goons follow and die, or sit around waiting for an observer. WTF?!
In the recent match 20070603_ShinhanProleague_Game1_Estro_Pantech_Tester(Estro_P)_Mind(Pantech_T)@TauCross.wmv where two measly tanks were on a cliff, and what must have been 12-15 goons were unable to kill both tanks without heavy losses (and finally backing out and waiting for an arbiter) even when flanking! Pitiful.
All this was made possible by the pathing, slow attack, and mediocre damage by the goons. Yeah, this sort of made for fun watching (if you werent on the recieving end of the mines), but it also lead to making vultures a REALLY cost effective unit vs Protoss ground. I mean, goons are supposed to counter vultures... but they only sort of counter them in certain situations... if no tanks are present and observers are present. Ouch.
PvZ. Since Goons do slow damage to mutas (and are an expensive tech option). Muta harrass was so good in vanilla starcraft, they had to increase cannon dmg to normal and give protoss corsair in BW almost entirely to fight mutas! (Along with the other factors, I know, but goon vs muta was a big reason.)
Now, on the flip side, the dumb goon abilities actually made the fight probably more exciting/interesting/less BS in some situations. Vs other protoss, where straight goons is a very valid tactic... here, a reaver, or massive leg zealots, psi storm, etc. has a chance to keep up or turn the tide vs all goons.
Some things I will greatly miss as lasers replace \"plasma balls of death\", as some say,
1. the march, hold, fire, march, hold, fire micro of goons. That somehow just makes me smile every time... regardless of if it\'s me doing it or the enemy or a pro.
2. death throes of goons
3. the blue goo
4. the voices of our beloved physically challenged protoss. Hell, if I ever lose the functions of my legs, I want a Dragoon suit!
5. those crazy spinny things under their butt
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FRICKEN LAZER BEAMS. Warp ray and colossus look fine imo. I just hate the soul reaper in general... its gay lazers, the gay surf board, the gay name.
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On June 19 2007 11:39 Nyovne wrote: NO DON'T CROSS THE BEAMS!!!
AARRGHHHHHHH
lol, only took one post:D
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Bigger flip side:
OK, i'm not 100% pro lasers... and many people have stated why.
1. no micro for the colossus. 2. less dancing (well, we aren't sure yet) with units like the Soul Hunter 3. no micro for the warp ray 4. no micro for the X 5. lasers could get too messy on the screen. Hopefully there will be a fix.
Well, I'm not so sure about #2. If you pretend marines have a continuous fire (they are close), that doesn't stop their dance vs zealots or lurkers or zerglings in SC1. I think the Soul Hunter will function like this.
It's still hard to say about #1 too. Maybe the colossus won't seem too microless since he'll be crawling up walls, and you will likely be microing 5 other unit types along with him. Maybe Protoss needs one unit that works well alone. Dunno.
I'm not 100% sold, but I'm not 100% against. I think lasers could work, if Blizzard is really careful.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
Soulhunters just rub me the wrong way, but ah well. We'll see! Colossus and Warp-Rays actually look really cool to me. Colossus a bit less but, warp-rays really look awsome to me and have great potential.
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I disagree with your 4th point, no micro for the wrap ray.
There seem to be a lot of hard counters, so when you show up at your enemy's base you cant just a-click and then let your warprays attack god knows what. You need to run them away from marines and then focus them on BCs and buildings and what not
which if i'm not mistaken, is micro
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On June 19 2007 11:37 Zanno wrote:
I also suspect that they're team colored, but it's hard to tell because terran has always been red team and protoss has always been blue team.
Just a passing thought.
From looking at the PCGamer scans we see Pink Protoss firing Blue lasers
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Lasers are overused and unoriginal.
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yeah but so are guns but no one is complaining about them
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Well the biggest hinderance of a dragoon compared to, to say goliath / tank / hydra is not having instant shots. However, these so-called lasers should be very different from one another, since apart from the Arbiter / Dragoon projectile, nothing looks the same in StarCraft1 (unless I really missed something, Photon Cannon shot animation is a bit different from those 2).
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[/QUOTE]warp ray damage increases the longer it fires, so it is most effective when their fire is spread out among different units, preferably the highest hp ones around [/QUOTE] Just a sidenote: You may as well spread out their fire so perfectly, that they get terribly raped cause they only damaged everything, and didn't kill anything
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