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On August 31 2011 12:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:wow this is epic didn't think about the bunkering at the bottom wow, blizzard always does find a way to fix things don't they Does this mean you can attack bunkers at the bottom with roaches without being hit ? =O i guess this means the neutral depot can be removed now, and close positions are a little easier for ZvT
but i thought the whole point of the depot at the bottom was to stop the terran (or toss for that matter) from denying the zerg from taking an expo at almost no cost (insert bunker being free joke).
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The FF's at the bottom of the ramp ALWAYS stopped vision, it's just if you're slow/sloppy and hit it in the middle, it's more forgiving now against 4gate. I actually hate the change since zerg has awful ramp units and now they can't see up it as easily so any kind of early or all-in aggression is slightly worse or you need an overlord which can be sniped.
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On August 31 2011 12:09 kidd wrote: The FF's at the bottom of the ramp ALWAYS stopped vision, it's just if you're slow/sloppy and hit it in the middle, it's more forgiving now against 4gate. I actually hate the change since zerg has awful ramp units and now they can't see up it as easily so any kind of early or all-in aggression is slightly worse or you need an overlord which can be sniped.
Lol?
No, it didn't. You could always warp a zealot above the forcefield before, giving you vision to warp into the high ground.
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8748 Posts
On August 31 2011 12:09 kidd wrote: The FF's at the bottom of the ramp ALWAYS stopped vision, it's just if you're slow/sloppy and hit it in the middle, it's more forgiving now against 4gate. I actually hate the change since zerg has awful ramp units and now they can't see up it as easily so any kind of early or all-in aggression is slightly worse or you need an overlord which can be sniped. It has always taken 2 force fields and now it's going to take 1.
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On August 27 2011 05:04 rale wrote: This doesn't shut down 4-gate entirely. Against risky builds, you can still just force your way up the ramp with your first zealot/stalker and make a couple of pylons on the high ground. Yet simply knowing this is the only way in 5-6:30 minutes to defeat forcefield defense on the ramp (1-2 sentries) will make one more vigilant against it. I only started 4gating PvP when I realized that any forcefield position on the ramp still allowed units to be warped in over it purely from the vision of units trapped under it. With that timing past, the defense above the ramp with higher tech units like immortals becomes much much easier.
To the guy that talked about K4G, that was more nerfed by the warpgate time increase than anything else.
And Liquid'Tyler beat me to the punch with the guy that thought pre-PTR there was a money-forcefield that could stop all warpin. 2 forcefields required up until this change is implemented. Blink, however, has had a money forcefield on top where blinkstalkers don't have the vision to blink forward past it into base.
EDIT: This link/picture and this one for examples as to how warpin on ramp / warpin above forcefields with vision from units below them function and STILL function in current patch.
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Looks like they're not messing around this time, just straight up disabling warp ins on ramps is huge.
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Looks like i'm going to have to learn how to pvp again...
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Blizzard should have just done this in the first place. Now give us back the original WG timing and pylon radius!
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-1 sight range might help, but 4 gate will still be a bitch on a lot of maps.
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I'm afraid 4 gating will become obsolete on every map but tal darim. I actually really like it as a viable strategy to be used especially in a series match. I also like that I am able to stop it most of the time on ladder and get the win.
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On August 31 2011 12:48 vectorix108 wrote: Blizzard should have just done this in the first place. Now give us back the original WG timing and pylon radius!
No way. Pylon radius was ridiculous back then, and the change to warpgate research made toss more finessed in aggression without all-inning all the time.
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On August 31 2011 12:56 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 12:48 vectorix108 wrote: Blizzard should have just done this in the first place. Now give us back the original WG timing and pylon radius! No way. Pylon radius was ridiculous back then, and the change to warpgate research made toss more finessed in aggression without all-inning all the time.
What was so ridiculous about the old pylon radius? I've honestly never heard of anyone complain that pylon radius was 'broken' before the previous patch hit - it was purely done to help PvP, if 4gate effectiveness can be solved with this ramp vision thing, they should change the pylon radius back, no reason not to.
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I could be wrong on this, but I recall something about the pylon radius and WG nerf were soley to fix PvP, I think from a Blizzard Dev article or something on their site. Now that 4 Gates Warp Ups are no longer possible, a revert is in order...or is that illogical?
Although it was to fix PvP, the fact of the matter is, it had HUGE repercussions for PvT & PvZ.
update: after some net scouring....
Blizzard Situation Report - Patch 1.3.3 "PvP Fix" + Show Spoiler +Straight from the bridge of the Hyperion we bring you the latest situation report for StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty. In this edition, we'll be discussing some of the most notable changes in the recently released patch 1.3.3 and shedding some more light on our design philosophy and the thinking behind this update.
Balance Changes
Protoss
Cybernetics Core Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Gateway Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37. Warp Gate unit train times remain unchanged. Pylon Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5. These three changes were made specifically to address the 4-gateway issue. The slight increase in Warp Gate research time should only really affect early-game strategies such as the 4-gate all-in. It was a challenge to find a research time high enough to achieve this goal without affecting other, non-early game strategies, but we eventually settled on 160. Regarding the sentry, it's the only tier-1 unit that's rarely used on the offensive in PvP 4-gate all-ins. However, they're almost always used on the defensive, so buffing this unit was the way to go in order to make defending easier.
The pylon power radius reduction will help the defending player take them out easier from above ramps, as well as make it so there are limited spots below cliffs where the opponent can build them in order to offensively warp in above. On the flip side, because protoss bases generally have plenty of pylon power, we’re not too worried about this affecting the defensive side too much -- though players might need to pay more attention to their base layouts.
On top of these changes, we're also looking into slightly changing how vision works on ramps so that if you use Force Field on your ramp just right, the opposing protoss player will not be able to spawn above your ramp or Blink stalkers up past a perfectly positioned Force Field. We will continue to monitor how the changes we made in 1.3.3 are working out before making the final call.
We hope these changes will resolve the 4-gate issue in PvP.
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On August 31 2011 16:15 deadmau wrote:I could be wrong on this, but I recall something about the pylon radius and WG nerf were soley to fix PvP, I think from a Blizzard Dev article or something on their site. Now that 4 Gates Warp Ups are no longer possible, a revert is in order...or is that illogical? Although it was to fix PvP, the fact of the matter is, it had HUGE repercussions for PvT & PvZ. update: after some net scouring.... Blizzard Situation Report - Patch 1.3.3 "PvP Fix"+ Show Spoiler +Straight from the bridge of the Hyperion we bring you the latest situation report for StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty. In this edition, we'll be discussing some of the most notable changes in the recently released patch 1.3.3 and shedding some more light on our design philosophy and the thinking behind this update.
Balance Changes
Protoss
Cybernetics Core Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Gateway Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37. Warp Gate unit train times remain unchanged. Pylon Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5. These three changes were made specifically to address the 4-gateway issue. The slight increase in Warp Gate research time should only really affect early-game strategies such as the 4-gate all-in. It was a challenge to find a research time high enough to achieve this goal without affecting other, non-early game strategies, but we eventually settled on 160. Regarding the sentry, it's the only tier-1 unit that's rarely used on the offensive in PvP 4-gate all-ins. However, they're almost always used on the defensive, so buffing this unit was the way to go in order to make defending easier.
The pylon power radius reduction will help the defending player take them out easier from above ramps, as well as make it so there are limited spots below cliffs where the opponent can build them in order to offensively warp in above. On the flip side, because protoss bases generally have plenty of pylon power, we’re not too worried about this affecting the defensive side too much -- though players might need to pay more attention to their base layouts.
On top of these changes, we're also looking into slightly changing how vision works on ramps so that if you use Force Field on your ramp just right, the opposing protoss player will not be able to spawn above your ramp or Blink stalkers up past a perfectly positioned Force Field. We will continue to monitor how the changes we made in 1.3.3 are working out before making the final call.
We hope these changes will resolve the 4-gate issue in PvP.
give blizzard some credit... obviously they consider the effect of every change in other matchups.
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I did give blizzard credit, I was just citing their words. Of course they looked at all matchups with the fix, but it was to fix PvP, they figured the patch would fix it AND still not affect PvT, and PvZ, but they were wrong so WHY NOT revert? How can you deny what I'm saying shizna, so am I being logical or not ?
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On August 26 2011 10:57 Chexx wrote: Just an Idea... do you have time to research hallucination when you do a 4gate? Just hallucinate a phoenix(VR, etc) to get vision of the highground. Then it should be possible to warp in / blink in to the highground.
Just an idea of a plat player.
Not even close. You couldn't afford it regardless.
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On August 26 2011 10:57 Chexx wrote: Just an Idea... do you have time to research hallucination when you do a 4gate? Just hallucinate a phoenix(VR, etc) to get vision of the highground. Then it should be possible to warp in / blink in to the highground.
Just an idea of a plat player.
The idea of a well done 4gate is to warp units to attack as soon as the reserch finishes. So unless you make 2 cybernetics (Wich would turn the 4gate less deadlier [less units], there's no way you can do that.
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Good now maybe they can revert the warp gate nerfs and pylon radius
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On August 31 2011 12:56 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 12:48 vectorix108 wrote: Blizzard should have just done this in the first place. Now give us back the original WG timing and pylon radius! No way. Pylon radius was ridiculous back then, and the change to warpgate research made toss more finessed in aggression without all-inning all the time.
Interesting. Maybe the barracks nerf will make terrans think twice about 1/1/1 all-inning every game?
Probably not.
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I'm fine with the warping above high ground... 4 gate holdable on ramped maps with mc's 3 gate, I'm pretty sure this patch was just to make it possible to stop blink stalkers with a well placed forcefield...thus weakening stalkers w/ obs in any base race or base sniping scenario.
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