for fuck sake
[IPL 2] Main Event Day 2 - WR1 - Page 32
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
for fuck sake | ||
5ukkub
Poland507 Posts
On July 16 2011 17:58 SafeAsCheese wrote: why turn the thread into a dick measuring contest just to win an argument when this thread will fall out of existence in 24 hours? for fuck sake The theme of IPL 2 is "Across the Atlantic" | ||
wats0n
United States509 Posts
On July 16 2011 17:45 AxionSteel wrote: Ok. Naniwa, Thorzain, Socke, Strelok, BratOK, Nerchio, HasuObs, White-Ra, Happy, DarkForce, MaNa, DIMAGA, ToD, SaSe, DieStar, Tarson, ClouD, Kas, DeMusliM, Stephano, MorroW, BeastyQt, NightEnD, SjoW, Ret, GoOdy, LaLush, HayprO, Jinro Name an NA player to match all of those players for skill. Yeah, because I can't name any NA players to match the skill of great players like Cloud or Diestar. I could easily just copy and paste the rosters of EG, Sixjax, Complexity, Reign, and some of Dignitas and Fnatic and others and match your list. That you think I can't is pretty amusing but also sad because I think you actually believe these are all "great" players without equal.. Most of those players just play in weekly Euro tournaments/cups so their names are out there but that doesn't make them top players. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand. | ||
ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
the skill level may be a tiny bit higher on europe, just because the 100ish top european players all train and work a lot harder than the top 100 NA players and they have more/better practice partners because of that. | ||
RexCogitans
Norway37 Posts
For NA, you have to choose between Huk and Select, you can't have both. Either you pick north americans by where they are from or you pick them for where they play/train/have heir regimen. Jinro obviously would have to be counted out from europe if you chose Select, I don't know if any koreans are doing well in europe. If you pick by where you train/live europe has the advantage of the culture of secondary income being more towards participating in weeklies over the american culture being more about coaching. The former will accelerate your improvement faster than the latter. Ranking the NA players I would say Idra and Huk are on the top tier, Kiwikaki and Select are on the second, those are the ones who have a real shot at winning every tournament and several tournaments in a row. Thorzain seems to create a lot of confusion as to his skill-level. I think its quite obvious that he is extremely good when he can prepare for matches a week in advance, and is getting quite good at the hectic nature of live tournaments. Since he is seeded into code A I think he has a real shot at making it far (aka. no insta code B, possibly code S), but I would seriously doubt he would be able to make it through code A qualifiers without a lot more experience at the stressful many-games-in-a-row style of tournaments. I don't think nervousness from playing on tv will be as bad for him as it has been for some of the other foreigners in korea because of his experience from WC3. Anyway, I'm probably wrong, about everything, and I expect to be countered on every point by you excellent TL posters | ||
wats0n
United States509 Posts
Drewbie, I think it's also harder for a NA player to achieve the same notoriety as a EU player. If you play well in some EU weekly cup tournies, and there are tons, you get your name out and people will even list you in the same sentence as Naniwa among great players. In the NA scene somebody like Gatored or Richman does well in every single open tourney and tops the ladder but they don't even show up on any lists because they don't get the same publicity. It's also kinda sad that Destiny can improve to the point where he is beating Bomber and taking games off HuK but he's still not respected. | ||
Morrisson
289 Posts
On July 16 2011 18:57 wats0n wrote: It's also kinda sad that Destiny can improve to the point where he is beating Bomber and taking games off HuK but he's still not respected. It's very recent tho. I'm pretty sure if he stays consistent ( i.e his style does not get figured out, like it happen to MMA, for exemple, then I'm sure he will get the credit he deserves. | ||
Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
On July 16 2011 19:01 Morrisson wrote: It's very recent tho. I'm pretty sure if he stays consistent ( i.e his style does not get figured out, like it happen to MMA, for exemple, then I'm sure he will get the credit he deserves. Destiny's "style" is a build that was used, figured out and faded away from use because it was easy to stop. | ||
Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
He uses them excessively, and players didn't really figure out how to beat infestor heavy play. Before the infestor buff, he was nowhere. Maybe i'm wrong, but as soon as the style is really figured out, or the infestor gets nerfed, i think he'll vanish again from the top scene. | ||
AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On July 16 2011 18:17 wats0n wrote: Yeah, because I can't name any NA players to match the skill of great players like Cloud or Diestar. I could easily just copy and paste the rosters of EG, Sixjax, Complexity, Reign, and some of Dignitas and Fnatic and others and match your list. That you think I can't is pretty amusing but also sad because I think you actually believe these are all "great" players without equal.. Most of those players just play in weekly Euro tournaments/cups so their names are out there but that doesn't make them top players. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand. EG? Lol. There's a reason why EG struggles in team tournaments, they rely heavily on IdrA. You're out of your mind if you think AxSlav and Incontrol are on the same level as top EU protoss players like Naniwa, hasuobs, Socke, SaSe etc and if you think Machine and Strifecro are up there with the top EU zergs, then lol. Complexity? seriously? Catz and Drewbie are a combined 4-23 vs European players in their show match series and I highly doubt Minigun and Cruncher would fare much better. You really are clutching at straws. Once again. TSL- Big tournament. Lots of NA and EU players tried their best to qualify. In the end 15 EU players qualified compared to 3 NA players. The top 4 of the tournament were all from Europe. NASL- Big Tournament. Big American Tournament. 6 Europeans qualified for the finals, 1 american. Next Season. 15 Europeans, 9 Americans. The top of NA can compete with EU, but there's just not as many of them. | ||
Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
On July 16 2011 18:57 wats0n wrote: Select lives in the U.S. He bought the game in the U.S. and he grew up on the NA ladder. I don't see why we can't claim him Drewbie, I think it's also harder for a NA player to achieve the same notoriety as a EU player. If you play well in some EU weekly cup tournies, and there are tons, you get your name out and people will even list you in the same sentence as Naniwa among great players. In the NA scene somebody like Gatored or Richman does well in every single open tourney and tops the ladder but they don't even show up on any lists because they don't get the same publicity. It's also kinda sad that Destiny can improve to the point where he is beating Bomber and taking games off HuK but he's still not respected. plz stop this boring "claiming", its getting tedious. | ||
noezke
England514 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:40 Sqq wrote: plz stop this boring "claiming", its getting tedious. So true, it was beyond tedious after the first 2 pages this rediculous discussion ever came up. ^_^ | ||
Batch
Sweden692 Posts
I don't think we can come to any conclusions of what players are better at the moment and compare a top10 EU against a top10 NA. I think the only conclusion we can make right now which we can agree upon is that HuK is the number one foreigner atm. | ||
MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
On July 16 2011 22:48 MCDayC wrote: At the very top level, I think the NA scene can compete. Select, HuK, Kiwi and Idra are as good or better than any european player. However, after that, it really doesn't compare. There are like 50 amazing Euro players who can beat anyone else NA has to offer. That's my take on it. When was the last time Kiwikaki achieved anything? He didn't qualify for the NASL finals and went 1-5 at MLG Colombus. I'm sure he's not bad or anything but he's not anywhere near "as good or better than any european player" on current form. And while Select is good, I think he's a bit overrated - a tier below Huk, Idra, Sen, Naniwa and Thorzain. I agree with your overall point though. | ||
MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On July 16 2011 23:20 PigglyWinks wrote: When was the last time Kiwikaki achieved anything? He didn't qualify for the NASL finals and went 1-4 at MLG Colombus. I'm sure he's not bad or anything but he's not anywhere near "as good or better than any european player" on current form. And while Select is good, I think he's a bit overrated - a tier below Huk, Idra, Sen, Naniwa and Thorzain. I agree with your overall point though. NASL form isn't everything, loads of top players didn't qualify. I would agree on current form neither Select or Kiwi are on top right now. However, I think they both should be considered great players, and have gone very far in loads of good tournaments. Both have managed to be top 4 in multiple MLGs, both went extremely far in the IPL, and have an extremely good record in many other, smalyer tournaments. I just think that they are slumping slightly right now, and are looking for a major tourney win to reestablish themselves. Right now, I would agree that Select (and Kiwi) are a tier below most of the players you named, but I think they has the capability to beat all of them. But overall the Euro vs NA dick measuring contest seems silly. There are players on both sides who are amazing, and players on both sides who aren't. It doesn't really matter. | ||
ETisME
12083 Posts
On July 16 2011 19:09 Headnoob wrote: Destiny's "style" is a build that was used, figured out and faded away from use because it was easy to stop. Not too sure about that, it looks like he still has a lot of space for improvements in comparing against top pros, it might not be his build but his skill that is capping him. (which is the better thing) | ||
FireFish
Denmark228 Posts
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lunchforthesky
United Kingdom967 Posts
On July 16 2011 17:44 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: As for Thorzain, yea he still has a bit to prove but he's at least proven his TSL run was no fluke in my eyes. Ripping through the open bracket at MLG,meeting his end at MC 4-2 and claiming the #9 spot is nothing to scoff at. His Dreamhack run was decent as well considering July and Hasu barely beat him. I would not be surprised at all if he overtook huk and nani in the near future. At this point Thorzain's TSL win doesn't really luck like a fluke, but it doesn't look like something that would happen again. It's comparable to Polt's Super Tournament win. The guy played well, very well in fact, but he probably won't win another major tournament right away. | ||
wats0n
United States509 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:25 AxionSteel wrote: TSL- Big tournament. Lots of NA and EU players tried their best to qualify. In the end 15 EU players qualified compared to 3 NA players. The top 4 of the tournament were all from Europe. NASL- Big Tournament. Big American Tournament. 6 Europeans qualified for the finals, 1 american. Next Season. 15 Europeans, 9 Americans. The top of NA can compete with EU, but there's just not as many of them. If you want to play the tournament results game I can point out that Morrow got 32nd at Columbus.. Very easy to cherry pick results that favor an argument. You threw out 29 names and only a couple are actual great players (Thorzain and Naniwa). We're never going to agree because you think that players with popular names and zero major championships are top players. If you don't think that there are NA players who can win BoX against guys like Happy, Diestar, Cloud, Stephano, Haypro, BeastyQT, and the rest of the players you mentioned then you're clearly biased. You're being disingenuous calling all those guys great players when you know for a fact that all the great players are in Korea or at least you should know that. Enjoy overrating players but I prefer to remain more grounded. | ||
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