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Hello,
I've been having this ongoing problem for months with the Church that's behind my fiances parents house. The Church runs a daycare all week where they have kids from Kindergarten up to maybe 4th or 5th grade. From our backyard we can see into the area where the kids play since they destroyed the privacy bush that used to separate the yards, which now has huge gaps in it.
So throughout the day the kids will come outside for their play time, and instead of playing on their swing set, sandboxes, or basketball courts they have, a group of 6-10 of them run right into the wooded lot next to us that we also happen to own. This wooded lot is not cleared at all, has a lot sharp bushes, downed trees, and we've seen numerous snakes in there.
So these kids play in our bushes all day when they're outside, which we can see when we're on the back patio. They climb trees and sit up high and stare at us and sometimes yell things at me or my fiance. They also like to take sticks the find and whack the bushes around them to clear more paths. This is what caused the huge holes in our privacy bushes.
My fiances parents are not very vocal about the issue to the people who own the church, they like to keep to themselves. But after hearing them complaining about it again maybe 3 months ago, I decided I was sick of it, and I walked over there to confront the adults in charge of watching the children.
When I walked over there were two adults standing there talking, not even watching the kids since once they go in the bush you can't see the from the church side. I told the guy in charge that the kids cannot play on our property as it's our property and I say so, and also they could get hurt playing in the brush. They proceeded to argue with me that they were only playing in the easement that separates our yard and the churches property so they had every right to be there. The lady who was standing with the guy was one of the kids mother who proceeded to try and tell me she is an off duty Sheriff and I need to leave the kids alone.
So after arguing to no avail, I went back inside and thought about what I could do. I decided to go to my county's zoning department and get the property line so I could show them where they are not allowed. So I got the papers and sure enough there is an easement there, but it's a utility easement on our side of the property. The gentleman at the zoning dept who provided me the papers explained that even though it's an easement it's still on my property and the county utilities are the only ones allowed on the easement besides the property owner.
With papers in hand, I decided enough was enough and went to meet with the Pastor of the church directly. I kindly explained the situation and showed him that I had gone to the effort of getting the landlines to show them they need to move off the property. This guy is younger and a major smart ass and kept asking me, "Why don't you want them there?" like he was implying I had something to hide. So finally after about an hours chat with the Pastor we walk out and I show him the destroyed bushes and the area where the kids go. We both agree that the kids will not go past the power lines which are roughly above the property line.
All was well for about a month, but now the kids are back in our property on a daily basis. This time though, they have moved further down in the brush to try and avoid being seen. I can only assume the guy in charge of the daycare instructed them to move down, these kids are not bright at all.
Crudely drawn Paint to help visualize the property.
Here is a picture from yesterday taken from our backyard, looking at the lot to the side of us that we own. The church is to the right of the picture, so that gives an idea how far they are into the property. You can see the kids up in these tall trees, there was actually 4 of them in there but my camera phone only picked up 2.
What can I do next?
tl;dr Daycare kids trespassing on our property, warned owners many times of trespassing and showed them property lines from county office, still won't get off our property on a daily basis. What do?
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build a big fence kids aren't going to listen to you but it's pretty much all you can do
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On June 29 2011 22:32 Tleaf wrote:build a big fence kids aren't going to listen to you but it's pretty much all you can do So I'm supposed to spend the money to fence not one but two properties just so I can keep them off? That's a lot of money. Fences aren't cheap, at all.
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Minefield! No, probably just a fence.
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On June 29 2011 22:34 eight.BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:32 Tleaf wrote:build a big fence kids aren't going to listen to you but it's pretty much all you can do So I'm supposed to spend the money to fence not one but two properties just so I can keep them off? That's a lot of money. Fences aren't cheap, at all.
No they aren't but it really well increase your property value so you can think of it as an investment
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instead of a fence consider running live wires at about chest and knee level on the kids around the property. a few stern examples will deter them. wires are much cheaper and perhaps you can get your hands on some cheap car batteries to power them.
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The fence is most likely the cheapest and best option, unless you want to keep argueing into eternity, involve the police or even go to court.
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cut halfway through the branches of the trees they climb so next time they climb them the branches will break. set up bear traps.
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Have you tried shouting at them and scaring the living daylights out of them? That used to work when I was a kid.
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Hyrule18886 Posts
Panji traps and deadfalls. Maybe a moat.
That'll teach them.
But seriously, a privacy fence. It will increase your property value. Additionally, you should file an official complaint with the police department or something. That way, at least, if one of the kids gets hurt the church/families can't sue you for saying "WELL YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID IT WAS DANGEROUS" because you'll have all official like documents saying "this area is dangerous and they need to gtfo".
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Yeah fences are cool, but you shouldn't have to spend money on this problem. Nor should you feel bad for enforcing your stance on this. Tell them to get the fuck out, if a kid falls on a stick and dies, can you get sued? Turn the fuckin hose on these whippersnappers.
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Hyrule18886 Posts
On June 29 2011 22:51 HackBenjamin wrote: Yeah fences are cool, but you shouldn't have to spend money on this problem. Nor should you feel bad for enforcing your stance on this. Tell them to get the fuck out, if a kid falls on a stick and dies, can you get sued? Turn the fuckin hose on these whippersnappers. I'm sure the family can sue, and probably would. It is America after all.
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Yeah, as they already said. Do anything possible to avoid being sued. Then, wait for them to climb a tree and shoot them down with rocks.
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Might not have caught it on my first read through: what State are you in?
You have a possible suit against the church for negligent supervision and could seek injunctive relief possibly--depending on the State. Also, since you're aware of the children consistently trespassing, you have an elevated duty of care, the level of which will vary depending--again--on the state you live in. And then there's the attractive nuisance doctrine to worry about if there's anything on the land that looks "alluring" to a child. All in all, I'd get representation because if the kids were to get hurt on your property, you may be liable for the damages (along with the church).
By far the cheapest and easiest solution is to build a fence and post No Trespassing signs. I know it sucks, but litigation is hard, expensive, and painful so unless a strongly worded letter from an attorney will convince the church to stop its practices, I'd advise you to head over to Home Depot and get some lumber
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You should plant various sharp objects like nails broken glass etc for them to get hurt on that way they never want to come back again.
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On June 29 2011 23:08 Lexiconman wrote: Might not have caught it on my first read through: what State are you in?
You have a possible suit against the church for negligent supervision and could seek injunctive relief possibly--depending on the State. Also, since you're aware of the children consistently trespassing, you have an elevated duty of care, the level of which will vary depending--again--on the state you live in. And then there's the attractive nuisance doctrine to worry about if there's anything on the land that looks "alluring" to a child. All in all, I'd get representation because if the kids were to get hurt on your property, you may be liable for the damages (along with the church).
By far the cheapest and easiest solution is to build a fence and post No Trespassing signs. I know it sucks, but litigation is hard, expensive, and painful so unless a strongly worded letter from an attorney will convince the church to stop its practices, I'd advise you to head over to Home Depot and get some lumber I'm in Florida.
Thanks for all the advice so far guys, I'm going to see if I can find any friends who have attorney friends/family. We can't really build a fence, as only my fiances Mom is working and her father is disabled and undergoes surgery quiet often so the bills are ridiculous. So through her Mom's work and my fiance and I pitching in where we can, we barely scrape by.
Would posting up the no trespassing signs on our property without the fence for now help us on a legal level, or would that just be a waste of time?
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It definitely wouldn't hurt. Probably wouldn't be dispositive but could help. Also, I believe (again, talk to a FL attorney) that as far as repeated trespassers in FL your duty is only to make them aware of potentially hazardous/seriously injuring defects in the land (possibly even only man made defects) that you're aware of (or possibly should be aware of). So, if you're unaware of any things like sinkholes, swimming pools, gator pits, etc, then you might be ok. I'd do a quick survey and let the church people know what you find.
The other thing you could do is print out a single sheet explaining the situation and how you're uncomfortable with kids climbing through your unkept woods unattended by adults and hand it out to the parents as they drop their kids in the morning. That potentially serves 1 of 2 purposes: 1) puts the parents on notice and 2) perhaps they don't realize what the church is doing and will choose to take their children to a different daycare. You would then have the invisible hand of the market forcing the church to comply with your request simply to stay in business.
These are just a few ideas but really you should contact an attorney in your area.
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You don't need anything fancy for your fence, just chicken wire is probably enough. You just need something to mark the property line and show you made a reasonable effort to keep the kids out. No trespassing signs also help showing that you are making an effort to keep them out. Whatever you do, do not try to hurt the kids or plant anything which might hurt them.
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I have been involved in similar issues in the past (easement and trespassing), so perhaps my advice can help. However, every situation is different and my experiences were not with US law so take it as you will...
Generally speaking, suing for trespassing really has no meaning. There are minimal damages so it would be tried as a criminal case and not a civil case (unless you want to sue for $1). If the police or DPP (department of prosecution) does not want to pursue it (and they won't for stuff like this), there's not much there in that regard.
However, you should definitely take some action. If the kids become injured on your property, you may become liable, although I am not sure about this. Regardless, start taking measures to protect yourself. Your idea of a no trespassing sign is good. Document meeting times, locations, names of people you talked to, duration of meeting, etc. Start communicating with dated letters or emails. Take photos, videos, anything. Send complaint letters to your local council, police etc. Make sure you raise the issue of safety. This all leaves a paper trail that will help you protect yourself. Imagine if something happened to the kids, and they just turned around and denied you ever meeting with them to raise your concerns - you may become liable for negligence!!!!
You may also be able to claim damages on the privacy bush - if you have some before and after shots, video of the kids causing damage etc... if you win they will have to replace or repair it, but i wouldn't get my hopes up. it is usually not economically viable for something as small as this. Just remember to protect yourself from liability!
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Call the local Child Protective Services and/or the police, IMO. The property damage is sufficient justification to call the cops, and since the children aren't being properly supervised, I'd be willing to bet the CPS would have a few choice words for the people running the daycare service.
This will have the added benefit of providing solid proof that you're concerned about the well-being of the children.
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