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All-time Elo ratings by matchup

Forum Index > BW General
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gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia2330 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-09 07:32:22
July 09 2008 07:22 GMT
#1
Recently I used the TLPD game database to calculate elo ratings split by matchup (as opposed to the overall ones that are currently in the DB). These are interesting because you can see who is/was best at a particular matchup even if they weren't necessarily the best player overall. I also find it interesting that the ratings for the most part correspond *very* well with common intuitions on which players were/are good at which matchups, which seems to indicate that they're at least somewhat correct/useful even when they surprise us .

Notes:
- These are peak ratings, not current ones.
- I've given the top 10 in each matchup here.
- Players of each race in the MU are listed together because their ratings are derived from the same set of games and therefore are comparable.
- Only the relative values between players in a particular MU matter, not the absolute values.
- "Inflation" is probably not an issue here because the average rating of players in this system is fixed at 2000.0 by definition.
- I used k = 25, which I think is the same as what TLPD uses for overall ratings (I also calculated overall ratings and ended up with values very close to the TLPD ones).
- Only players who have played at least 20 games in the relevant matchup are included on the lists.

So:

All-time ZvT/TvZ peak ratings:
(T)iloveoov: 2232
(Z)Jaedong: 2225
(T)NaDa: 2205
(Z)sAviOr: 2197
(T)Sea: 2197
(T)BoxeR: 2195
(Z)GoRush: 2188
(T)XellOs: 2185
(Z)YellOw: 2183
(T)Hwasin: 2177

All-time PvZ/ZvP peak ratings:
(Z)sAviOr: 2240
(P)Bisu: 2165
(P)rA: 2157
(Z)July: 2154
(P)Anytime: 2143
(Z)ChoJJa: 2131
(Z)YellOw: 2125
(P)Kal: 2107
(Z)Luxury: 2107
(Z)JinNam: 2105
((Z)Jaedong is #11 by 1 point)

All-time PvT peak ratings:
(T)Flash: 2224
(P)Stork: 2206
(T)iloveoov: 2179
(P)rA: 2175
(T)NaDa: 2174
(P)Reach: 2154
(T)Midas: 2151
(P)Kingdom: 2143
(T)Sea: 2136
(P)Much: 2124

All-time ZvZ peak ratings:
(Z)Jaedong: 2204
(Z)ChoJJa: 2178
(Z)JJu: 2161
(Z)GoRush: 2160
(Z)Luxury: 2149
(Z)July: 2142
(Z)sAviOr: 2131
(Z)YellOw: 2128
(Z)ZergMaN: 2118
(Z)GGPlay: 2099

All-time PvP peak ratings:
(P)BeSt: 2185
(P)Stork: 2180
(P)Reach: 2139
(P)Pusan: 2137
(P)Anytime: 2125
(P)rA: 2104
(P)Kingdom: 2099
(P)Much: 2080
(P)Bisu: 2078
(P)free[gm]: 2069

All-time TvT peak ratings:
(T)XellOs: 2193
(T)Sea: 2192
(T)NaDa: 2183
(T)Flash: 2178
(T)Iris: 2177
(T)iloveoov: 2159
(T)Goodfriend: 2153
(T)Casy: 2145
(T)Midas: 2141
(T)Canata: 2138

There are lots of interesting things here, including both confirmed suspicions (yep, Jaedong is really good at ZvZ and Flash is really good at TvP) and things that might be a little more interesting, such as Xellos and Sea being #1 and #2 in TvT. Savior's peak ZvP was *far* beyond anyone else, so no wonder the guy who dethroned him made it to #2.

Furthermore, tournaments should use matchup-specific maps
Darkmole
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States900 Posts
July 09 2008 07:27 GMT
#2
wow this is very interesting 0.0
pachi
Profile Joined October 2006
Melbourne5338 Posts
July 09 2008 07:27 GMT
#3
IIRC TLPD used something like K=20 for players with less than 20 games and K=40 for others or the otherway around.
Moderatorpachi fanclub http://goto.tl/6DI9 。◕‿◕。
CDRdude
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States5625 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-09 07:31:53
July 09 2008 07:29 GMT
#4
This is an awesome idea. Major props to you sir. I have to say, I'm surprised to see Goodfriend in the TvT ratings. Everyone else on that list has some (usually a lot) of fans, but I've rarely heard of Goodfriend. Damn that person who edged out JD in ZvP by one place, but I just know that will change in the series vs Much.
Force staff is the best item in the game.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
July 09 2008 07:29 GMT
#5
Bisu looks more and more like a one-matchup-wunderkid.

Also surprised me that July's ZvP was *that* good. Wasn't around back then, but I tended to hear more about his ZvT virtuoso (ie. iloveoov) than his ZvP.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
B1nary
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada1267 Posts
July 09 2008 07:35 GMT
#6
From the looks of it, iloveoov was the all-around most dominant player ever.
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10835 Posts
July 09 2008 07:36 GMT
#7
nada
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia2330 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-09 07:36:58
July 09 2008 07:36 GMT
#8
On July 09 2008 16:27 pachi wrote:
IIRC TLPD used something like K=20 for players with less than 20 games and K=40 for others or the otherway around.

Probably the other way around, but at any rate yeah, I didn't use those exact values. It shouldn't make much difference for this purpose, since I'm not directly comparing these ratings to the overall ones (and anyway, the overall ones I calculated with k=25 were within about +-10 points of the TLPD values on average).
Furthermore, tournaments should use matchup-specific maps
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
July 09 2008 07:40 GMT
#9
The list is surprisingly accurate though obviously there are clear flaws in it to draw concrete conclusions from it.
TL+ Member
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
July 09 2008 07:49 GMT
#10
Really glad oov is still on each list in a high spot.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
ScarFace
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1175 Posts
July 09 2008 07:52 GMT
#11
No offense but I dont think is very accurate. Jaedong and oov are nearly identical on tvz/zvt. But who was the one who went on a 27 game win streak? Yeah....I just cant see how they're even remotely close.
Can you dig it?
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia2330 Posts
July 09 2008 07:55 GMT
#12
On July 09 2008 16:52 ScarFace wrote:
No offense but I dont think is very accurate. Jaedong and oov are nearly identical on tvz/zvt. But who was the one who went on a 27 game win streak? Yeah....I just cant see how they're even remotely close.

If you care about records you can look at records. Ratings take into account the quality of the opposition too.
Furthermore, tournaments should use matchup-specific maps
Ilovewaffles
Profile Joined July 2008
9 Posts
July 09 2008 07:56 GMT
#13
On July 09 2008 16:52 ScarFace wrote:
No offense but I dont think is very accurate. Jaedong and oov are nearly identical on tvz/zvt. But who was the one who went on a 27 game win streak? Yeah....I just cant see how they're even remotely close.


The time period of said 27 game rapestreak plus time/maps/them being just STATS (seriously, when did stats matter when you're about to play someone?).


I motion you bump up Sea's TvT by two points so he can post smiley faces when he sees this thread.
ScarFace
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1175 Posts
July 09 2008 08:00 GMT
#14
On July 09 2008 16:55 gravity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2008 16:52 ScarFace wrote:
No offense but I dont think is very accurate. Jaedong and oov are nearly identical on tvz/zvt. But who was the one who went on a 27 game win streak? Yeah....I just cant see how they're even remotely close.

If you care about records you can look at records. Ratings take into account the quality of the opposition too.
I did. Except for some wins against thewind and silver, oov was playing the best of the best for the time. Yellow, jju, July, etc. ELO is suppose to reflect comparative dominance, in this it has failed. OOV dominated against the best zvt's in a far longer stretch, but the poorer stats of his opponents have misconstrued the results. In reality, Jaedongs streak is laughable compared to Oov's.
Can you dig it?
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
July 09 2008 08:04 GMT
#15
On July 09 2008 16:52 ScarFace wrote:
No offense but I dont think is very accurate. Jaedong and oov are nearly identical on tvz/zvt. But who was the one who went on a 27 game win streak? Yeah....I just cant see how they're even remotely close.


It's just ELO ratings. I mean, it's an interesting pointing system, but it's not the gospel truth. Actually I think this list has been arranged pretty well considering how flawed the all-time ELO peaks list is.
TL+ Member
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
July 09 2008 08:08 GMT
#16
Eh, wasn't Xellos considered the god of TvT for a while, with that being his best MU by far? How is him being #1 surprising?
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
Emptyness
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Bulgaria1016 Posts
July 09 2008 08:17 GMT
#17
Good to hear that Flash's TvP is the best - hope he can manage to keep it that way and improve his other MUs as well .
Fall down 9 times, Get up 10.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
July 09 2008 08:20 GMT
#18
savior SICK
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
July 09 2008 08:25 GMT
#19
kind of wished savior would come back, ya know?
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8093 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-09 08:26:47
July 09 2008 08:26 GMT
#20
Why isnt flash in the tvz elo ratings, he had a record of like 13-4 a few games back and has only lost to lux recently?
E: 1000th post
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
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