|
Rep 1
Rep 2
Right now my playing level is around C- with a 50% win ratio. I like to play to get fun rather than to improve. I've been trying new things with protoss and zerg. From theorycraft, queens in zvp should be a good build because broodling > templar, and mass hydras > toss without storm.
Now, the issue is here: how viable do queens get as the skill curve goes up? The protosses had good records for c- (25-8)/(21-6). But they're not B level of course. The idea here is to get 6 queens asap to get enough energy for broodling and when protoss goes out of his base, snipe up to 6 templars and gain absolute map control.
If i had better army control/macro/game management im sure i would have won much easier this games, however i dont know how good can the protoss respond to this tech.
Discuss!
|
Well, since most Protoss's normally go Corsair now it wouldn't be overall worth it. The unit that is an absolute counter to queens is the Dark Archon of course, but I am unaware of the feedback vs broodling range. Of course most Protoss's won't even think about feedback because it is not a very common skill. I think if the Protoss knows the entire race, then Queens won't be very valid.
If he doesn't get corsairs your still taking a BIG chunk of minerals and gas that could be used on say, more hydras. Unless you want to be a bitch zerg and turtle up and use queens. Your giving the Protoss more mobility than anything. Lurker/Hydra is more effective IMO.
Also, you need to beware of miss clicks and have perfect mouse control while sacrificing and overlord or two to gain the vision needed to control the Queens to snipe before you initiate combat.
|
Not super viable. In general terms, that gas is better spent on lurkers. The times I find queens most useful is as a counter to sair/reaver and reaver/goon strategies.
Against sair/reaver, cut down his mobility and vastly increase your ability to pick off shuttles and get pot-shots at his sairs.
Against reaver/goon, it throws off his goon micro BADLY and better allows you to pick off shuttles containing reavers.
These days, both those styles are out of fashion, and against a beesuit style queens don't work so well.
|
I think Queens aren`t `direct` support units like templar or vessel, they are more tactical weapons, (making broodlings when map runs out of minerals, parasiteing some units to get vision, or even ensnaring a whole toss army.) But you can`t apply them in most of the time, defilers usually much better, because they can cast plauge (what`s much better then ensnare), swarm, and mainly because, they can get back energy with consume. You must know when to call in some Queens. 
I think mass Hydra + Queen strat is not so good, cause an experienced toss will make 2 DA-s, wich are more than enough to deal with Queens (Feedback range and DA vision >> broodling range and Queen vision)
|
17059 Posts
I can't believe Ensnare wasn't mentioned at all.
It basically cripples the attacking and moving speed of Protoss ground, allowing for easier set up and more effective damage over time. Bill307 compiled a percentage list of Ensnare slow for movement and attack speeds, but I'm not sure where the list is.
Parasite is also situationally useful, when you want to gain some scouting or make an Observer useless. You can also parasite important units such as Archons or Templar in order to make the Protoss wary about where he sends his units. This is probably less useful than ensnare, though.
EDIT: Ask eri!
|
The good thing about Ensnare is that you don't need to hit all the units for it to effect the toss army movement. Ensnared units block the other units from moving at the normal speed anyway. Ensnare --> masslurk 360 degree flank would be the stuff of legends.
I'm not so sure about heavy expenditure into Queens for Broodling usage, as although at 100/100 Queens are relatively cheap casters, 150 mana is a lot. If you invest in Queens like that, it makes a big dent into your resources, and the payoff comes perhaps too late. i guess your rationale for anti-Storm is pretty strong, but the implementation is a little gimmicky for my tastes. Can you really get all of the templar before your next important fight (in which you're down a good 5 lurkers perhaps because of your Queen investment)? Good flanking and unit composition is more reliable, although the potential of eradicating all Storm usage is greater.
|
Since you're going to be using queens anyway and like to play for fun, you should try an ensnare/scourge combo when faced against a fleet of corsairs. I don't really know how viable this tactic would be against a decent opponent though. It just looks really cool when executed properly and seems somewhat equivalent to the toss' maelstrom/storm combo. Plus the slow movement of the corsairs makes it really easy to clone scourge.
|
Only flaw I see is that Toss always have their templars in shuttles. Even if you manage to ensnare the shuttle, your queen may not have enough energy to spawn broodlings on the temp, if he unloads it.
Ensnare is the better ability of the two, and it does work wonders in ZvP. Makes flanks way easier.
|
Toss always have their templars in shuttles? Highly unlikely...
I think ensnare is a good ability to have in your arsenal, one major flank (with ensnare) when protoss tries to push out to obtain a third expo could be devastating for the toss. I think queens should be used more frequently in ZvP, just not for broodlings.
|
how much minerals are we talking about massing queens, everyone says its to much of an expence
to much for 4 expos?
|
you could probably broodling high templars while dropping on a cannon/HT expo
|
Don't broodling, parasite. Either he kills the unit or you gain vision. Even if you lose the queen you're better of as long as you didn't target a zealot or dragoon or a probe.
|
Germany2762 Posts
i love to use queens on maps with many critters like ungoro crater. just parasite a bunch of them and you'll have vision all over the map. yay!
|
Calgary25998 Posts
We've mostly been over this in the other Queen thread. Broodling is too much of a cost to invest versus the time it takes to pay off. You basically need to spend 600 gas to get a few Queens and Broodling now, and them leave them in the corner for 2 minutes before they're useful.
Ensnare is super useful against both races. I'm surprised professional Zergs haven't turned to it yet.
|
Also, you need to beware of miss clicks and have perfect mouse control while sacrificing and overlord or two to gain the vision needed to control the Queens to snipe before you initiate combat.
Parasite.
I've used queens some, and these are a few general tips, that I've found from my gameplay:
If you start researching broodling when you have 110 energy for your queens, they'll have 150 when it finishes (iirc).
If you're going Queens, get dual upgrades for your hydras/lings (I did it before I even got lair; ideally you time it so that when your lair finishes, your first upgrades are finishing so you can start the new ones... I don't actually remember the timing). You have the money for this because you're not going muta or lurkers. When you go Hive, you're going Hive to get more updrades and cracklings, not ultra/defiler.
If you're getting esnare, just upgrade it right away, your queens will have energy.
Don't rush for Broodling. It's good when the game starts to get desperate, but it costs you too much early game for basically no benefit.
IMO if you're going Queens, you're not going lurks or muta for awhile, because you're going to be spending all your extra gas on upgrades.
PS: Take my suggestions with a grain of salt. They work for me, but I'm not terribly skilled and don't often play terribly skilled players myself. If anyone wants I can make a rep pack of games where I've used Queens.
|
just a question, what happens to a marine if he is ensnared but uses stim?
|
Terran Units
-Marines 17% decrease
-Stimmed Marines 23% decrease (though other tests suggests it's more of 45-50%, negating stim entirely)
From the old thread on Queens.
|
17059 Posts
On March 23 2008 23:53 Chill wrote:
Ensnare is super useful against both races. I'm surprised professional Zergs haven't turned to it yet.
My guess is probably a timing issue - by investing in Queens, he's either temporarily behind in economy or "useful" unit count. The opponent would probably have more leeway in expanding or attacking expansions, or making some other sort of attack before the Queens have started to "pay for themselves".
I'd probably relate it to expanding in PvP - it's an investment which can lead to success, but if timed wrong, leads to disaster.
And seriously - someone ask Eri how to use Queens.
|
United States996 Posts
i think i remember seeing eri parasite archons a lot in zvp
|
Norway28797 Posts
in zvp theyre really not that great, cept vs mass corsair. (in which case they're kind of necessary. and DEFINITELY worth it. frankly, well controlled mass corsairs cannot be killed without it, unless you're able to kill everything else he has too. with ensnare, all you need is a sufficient force.)
and broodling is sort of useless. parasite can be really good zvp (makes him have to waste archons or give you full view of his every move.)
but ensnare just isnt THAT useful against big lumps of protoss because he can just wait, stand in formation and storm shit that comes.
broodling could be good, but the problem is that if the queen dies before the broodling hits, the broodling doesnt work. and sadly, if you try to broodling a templar inside a group of units, that happens too often. 
there are some other situations where its great. like if he tries to bust out with 12+ archons in lategame, ensnare can be AWESOME, it basically makes any of the normal archon killers twice as good. (that is, mass hydra or ultraling+swarm)
even mass guardian+ ensnare can be a really, really great counter.
but against the normal just, straight out protoss ball of zealot goon archon templar, queens are mostly worth it for parasite. which frankly, is still more than worth the 100/100. (you usually spend more on scouting overlords anyway. )
zvt however, queens are gamewinning. zvp they're good in certain situations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
